Why are requirements so varied between federations

[ianyapxw 0]

Hi guys

I was reading both the APF (Australian) and USPA manuals and I've noticed that the requirements greatly differ.

For example, to get a Certificate 'A' the requirement is 10 jumps, as well as an accuracy component. For A license 25 jumps are required, with no accuracy component.

Another example is the Certificate 'F' (1k jumps), where a night descent is required. However, the D license requires 2 night jumps, though a D license holder only needs 500 jumps.

I'm sure there will also be differences if I pull manuals from federations in Europe, Japan, South America, etc...

I'm wondering why there are so much differences. Is it because of jumping conditions?

Thanks for the help!

[ParaStyx 0]

Not sure, i am just a newbie in the skydiving scenery.

Isn't it because of the different federations?
(exact like the question: "Why are laws so different in many countries?, because they are different countries and therefore different people?).

[ianyapxw 0]

But that's because each country runs (and has to run) differently from others. Can you imagine what would happen to an agricultural land like Australia if they followed the import laws of say Hong Kong.

I don't see why different federations should operate differently, especially if there are traveling jumpers who need to convert licenses. I would understand if say a country has vastly different wind conditions from another but doesn't skydiving feel the same wherever you go (an experienced jumper needs to weigh in here).

[piisfish 140]

driving feels the same everywhere.
Why do different countries have different driving rules, and why is it so different to pass your driving license ? Hell, why are driving ages different in some countries ? Why do some people drive on the wrong side of the road ?

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[ianyapxw 0]

True.

Do you know if the parachute federations developed the regulations independently or they started by copying each other?

[mr2mk1g 10]

Bit of both with a good dose of ex-military thinking at the start and varying degrees of counter culture along the way.

They're different because they started out as entirely separate entities without the mixing pot of the internet to homologise everything and significantly fewer people travelling around the world to jump in other countries. Kinda hard to swap ideas as quickly in the 60's when you're posting a mimeograph to another continent via a steam ship (slight exaggeration perhaps but you get the point).

They stay the same because the BPA* think their rules are best and the USPA* think theirs are best (*substitute for whatever letters you like). There are also different objectives in play; the BPA and AFP put safety very highly on their agenda for example, to the extent that from a USPA viewpoint they look like outright nanny states. They investigate the crap out of incidents though with a view to us all learning from them. Looking at the distinction in the other direction, USPA rules look like the Wild West - no requirement for an alti or helmet for example... but then it's the land of the free and you're a grown ass man and should be trusted to look after yourself. Incident reporting by comparison is downright grass roots.

[ianyapxw 0]

Thanks so much for the reply. It was really comprehensive and thorough

[djmarvin 2]

Some differences are due to goverment forced regulation vs. self regulation. I also believe you are missing some information, for example a USPA A does require 5 landings within 20 meters. Not a tight accuracy requirement, but there is a requirement. A lot of the younger federations have also learned from the history of established ones and in some cases put together a "tighter package".

DJ Marvin
AFF I/E, Coach/E, USPA/UPT Tandem I/E
http://www.theratingscenter.com

[tkhayes 348]

I think that things around the world are pretty consistent. Australia is an exception, not the rule.

[ianyapxw 0]

Thanks for adding that point.

Also, I did not know about the 5 jumps within 20m as I haven't looked at the proficiency card but only the online manual

[ianyapxw 0]

Lol.

Ok then, I didn't know that

[piisfish 140]

Switzerland is another exception : we have 1 license and that's it.
France comes to mind as a different system.
They have
A
B, B1, B2, B3, Bi4, B4 and now B5
C
Not sure they have a D license
The different B's are to allow you to practice different types of jumping in groups/alone

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[kallend 2,026]

I think it indicates a certain arbitrariness in the rules.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[ianyapxw 0]

I don't get how the Swiss system works? How bout things like jumping at the Palm, night jumps, demo jumps, coach ratings, license conversion to overseas, etc...

[skydiverek 63]

In Poland we have licenses: A, B, C, D, E, F, G

[Squeak 17]

ianyapxw

But that's because each country runs (and has to run) differently from others. Can you imagine what would happen to an agricultural land like Australia if they followed the import laws of say Hong Kong.

I don't see why different federations should operate differently, especially if there are traveling jumpers who need to convert licenses. I would understand if say a country has vastly different wind conditions from another but doesn't skydiving feel the same wherever you go (an experienced jumper needs to weigh in here).

you don't need to convert you licence APF is affiliated with the FAI you licence is internationally recognised.
I jump all over the world on my APF "E" licence

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

mr2mk1g

Bit of both with a good dose of ex-military thinking at the start and varying degrees of counter culture along the way.

They're different because they started out as entirely separate entities without the mixing pot of the internet to homologise everything and significantly fewer people travelling around the world to jump in other countries. Kinda hard to swap ideas as quickly in the 60's when you're posting a mimeograph to another continent via a steam ship (slight exaggeration perhaps but you get the point).

They stay the same because the BPA* think their rules are best and the USPA* think theirs are best (*substitute for whatever letters you like). There are also different objectives in play; the BPA and AFP put safety very highly on their agenda for example, to the extent that from a USPA viewpoint they look like outright nanny states. They investigate the crap out of incidents though with a view to us all learning from them. Looking at the distinction in the other direction, USPA rules look like the Wild West - no requirement for an alti or helmet for example... but then it's the land of the free and you're a grown ass man and should be trusted to look after yourself. Incident reporting by comparison is downright grass roots.

I am confused, what is "incident reporting"????

What is "investigation".... that would be a lawsuit?

The reasons for lax incident reporting in the USA have as much (if not more) to do with fear of lawsuits and fear of negative effect on marketing, as it does with the "wild west" / "freedom" issues.

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[Blis 1]

skydiverek

In Poland we have licenses: A, B, C, D, E, F, G

Meanwhile in finland we have A, B, C and D licenses

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

ianyapxw

Hi guys

I was reading both the APF (Australian) and USPA manuals and I've noticed that the requirements greatly differ.

For example, to get a Certificate 'A' the requirement is 10 jumps, as well as an accuracy component. For A license 25 jumps are required, with no accuracy component.

Another example is the Certificate 'F' (1k jumps), where a night descent is required. However, the D license requires 2 night jumps, though a D license holder only needs 500 jumps.

I'm sure there will also be differences if I pull manuals from federations in Europe, Japan, South America, etc...

I'm wondering why there are so much differences. Is it because of jumping conditions?

Thanks for the help!

This is an effort to address some of the issues related to this.

http://www.fai.org/ipc-our-sport/certificates-of-proficiency

The back side of my USPA license card states that it is an "International Parachutist Certificate of Proficiency" and bears the FAI logo. My guess is that this is an effort by USPA to ease international jumping by its members.

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[ianyapxw 0]

I think it depends on federation. From the APF manual:

Quote

5.2 Eligibility for Descents
A visitor who holds a valid parachuting licence issued by an FAI member may make descents only after:

(a) Taking out short-term membership or full membership of the APF; and
(b) A Chief Instructor has assessed the visitor’s experience and competence and has written in the visitor’s log the level of APF privileges that the visitor may exercise

[riggerrob 643]

GLIDEANGLE

***Bit of both with a good dose of ex-military thinking at the start and varying degrees of counter culture along the way.

They're different because they started out as entirely separate entities without the mixing pot of the internet to homologise everything and significantly fewer people travelling around the world to jump in other countries. Kinda hard to swap ideas as quickly in the 60's when you're posting a mimeograph to another continent via a steam ship (slight exaggeration perhaps but you get the point).

They stay the same because the BPA* think their rules are best and the USPA* think theirs are best (*substitute for whatever letters you like). There are also different objectives in play; the BPA and AFP put safety very highly on their agenda for example, to the extent that from a USPA viewpoint they look like outright nanny states. They investigate the crap out of incidents though with a view to us all learning from them. Looking at the distinction in the other direction, USPA rules look like the Wild West - no requirement for an alti or helmet for example... but then it's the land of the free and you're a grown ass man and should be trusted to look after yourself. Incident reporting by comparison is downright grass roots.

I am confused, what is "incident reporting"????

What is "investigation".... that would be a lawsuit?

The reasons for lax incident reporting in the USA have as much (if not more) to do with fear of lawsuits and fear of negative effect on marketing, as it does with the "wild west" / "freedom" issues.

..................................................................................

Medical mal-practice lawsuits are a huge part of the American economy. That is because the USA is one of the few industrialized nations that does not (until Obama-Care) socialized medicine.
Sadly, American legal practices are moving north of the border.

[ChrisHoward 8]

Squeak

you don't need to convert you licence APF is affiliated with the FAI you licence is internationally recognised.
I jump all over the world on my APF "E" licence

Actually many countries require you to obtain some form of National License (temporary or otherwise). The fact that an FAI license is internationally recognized will simply make this process easier. Now, whether the DZ you are at holds you to that or not is another question.

[Squeak 17]

ChrisHoward

***you don't need to convert you licence APF is affiliated with the FAI you licence is internationally recognised.
I jump all over the world on my APF "E" licence

Actually many countries require you to obtain some form of National License (temporary or otherwise). The fact that an FAI license is internationally recognized will simply make this process easier. Now, whether the DZ you are at holds you to that or not is another question.I have NEVER had to get ANY licence from any country I have jumped at.
I have had to take out temp or full Membership to their governing bodys like USPA membership, but that is NOT a licence.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[riggerrob 643]

Old men protecting their priveleges.

[ianyapxw 0]

yesh.

I sure hope APF is the best because I've got no choice :p