Ron 10
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Right off the top, how does the rig not fit? That would be my number one concern with the whole thing. If the fit is poor enough that a premature opening (while trying to sit) could spit her out of (or partially) the harness, thats a problem.
As far as marginal currency, a new DZ, and a new-to-her canopy, that could go either way. Maybe if she did a few two-way RW jumps to get current and get to know the DZ, that might be a good idea.
I understand that there is an S&TA invovled, which seems like a good thing, but if there is a remote possibility that he (or anyone else involved) is trying to get into her pants (or is already there), that certainly clouds thier judgement, and shoud be considered.
As far as marginal currency, a new DZ, and a new-to-her canopy, that could go either way. Maybe if she did a few two-way RW jumps to get current and get to know the DZ, that might be a good idea.
I understand that there is an S&TA invovled, which seems like a good thing, but if there is a remote possibility that he (or anyone else involved) is trying to get into her pants (or is already there), that certainly clouds thier judgement, and shoud be considered.
PhreeZone 20
Trust me.. the S&TA is'nt trying to get involved with her. 
He actually posts/lurks on here sometimes and is a highly respected organizer too. His speciality in organzing is low pressure skydives for those with low jumps at the largest boogie in the world. If anyone is used to seeing and hearing excuses its him. 
I hold him in the highest regard and respect him and his decisions very much. I'd bet that he's wondering what the big deal is since I am too and I know the whole story... not just some fragments of it. 
I believe the whole story also had her doing a few jumps with said jumper to work on some RW issues as a warm up too...
Considering the jumper in question has read and studied canopy flight books, manuals and asked more questions then people with a lot more jumps then her...
If this same jumper was to be put on a Sabre2 at .75 instead of their normal .95 loading with the same situation would anyone even be talking about this?
It terms of how bad the rig fits... thats yet to be determined buy measurements sound like they are only slightly off and are a lot better then some student gear was.
He actually posts/lurks on here sometimes and is a highly respected organizer too. His speciality in organzing is low pressure skydives for those with low jumps at the largest boogie in the world. If anyone is used to seeing and hearing excuses its him. I hold him in the highest regard and respect him and his decisions very much. I'd bet that he's wondering what the big deal is since I am too and I know the whole story... not just some fragments of it. I believe the whole story also had her doing a few jumps with said jumper to work on some RW issues as a warm up too...
Considering the jumper in question has read and studied canopy flight books, manuals and asked more questions then people with a lot more jumps then her...
If this same jumper was to be put on a Sabre2 at .75 instead of their normal .95 loading with the same situation would anyone even be talking about this?
It terms of how bad the rig fits... thats yet to be determined buy measurements sound like they are only slightly off and are a lot better then some student gear was.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
Ron 10
I have no stake either way, however.
Phree you know that reading all the books in the world means nothing without the experience to put those words into practice.
Other than that, I hope nothing happens....And if it does, I hope she is an adult and signed a waiver.
For every body I have helped hold to gether, for every funeral I have been to, the jumper and someone else always thought nothing would go bad.
Need I mention this mths Parachutist incident reports? A guy 3 times the legal driving limit, with Cocaine in his system doing a night jump on a 2.0 loaded Xbraced canopy. Some people thought that was a good idea also.
QuoteConsidering the jumper in question has read and studied canopy flight books, manuals and asked more questions then people with a lot more jumps then her...
Phree you know that reading all the books in the world means nothing without the experience to put those words into practice.
Other than that, I hope nothing happens....And if it does, I hope she is an adult and signed a waiver.
For every body I have helped hold to gether, for every funeral I have been to, the jumper and someone else always thought nothing would go bad.
Need I mention this mths Parachutist incident reports? A guy 3 times the legal driving limit, with Cocaine in his system doing a night jump on a 2.0 loaded Xbraced canopy. Some people thought that was a good idea also.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
PhreeZone 20
QuotePhree you know that reading all the books in the world means nothing without the experience to put those words into practice.
Yep, and I also know there are only 3 people in this thread that have probally even heard of the canopy that the jumper was offered to jump. I had to actually go read up on it since I never heard of it or its performance window either. It was described as "Better then a Sabre, but not quite a Stiletto either". Sounds like a Sabre2ish canopy before the "semi-ellipticals" came around to me. Shes been appling the skills taught to her through the books and was getting feedback on a lot of her landings and general canopy skills.
Ron.. would you have anything to comment on if the were jumping a "semi-elliptical"at .75 with 40 jumps in the same situation? I'm thinking of a jumper traveling to say Perris and renting a rig from Square1 with something like a Pilot in it. New rig, new canopy, new DZ...
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
Ron 10
QuoteYep, and I also know there are only 3 people in this thread that have probally even heard of the canopy that the jumper was offered to jump. I had to actually go read up on it since I never heard of it or its proformance window either. It wsa described as "Better then a Sabre, but not quite a Stiletto either"
Bluetrack? Viper? VIP?
QuoteShes been appling the skills taught to her through the books and was getting feedback on a lot of her landings and general canopy skills.
Oh I am sure, but you have to admit that at only 40ish jumps she is not tuned in to any canopy yet, much less a new one.
QuoteRon.. would you have anything to comment on if the were jumping a "semi-elliptical"at .75 with 40 jumps in the same situation?
I think changing more than any one thing at a time is a bad idea. New DZ (1) with a new rig (2) and new parachute (3) while learning a new type of skydive (4) is way to many thing that *could* go wrong.
Add in that the person has only 40 total jumps and that is a lot of new stuff at one time.
QuoteI'm thinking of a jumper traveling to say Perris and renting a rig from Square1 with something like a Pilot in it. New rig, new canopy, new DZ...
I think one of the dumbest things gear retailers do is lend new canopies to jumpers that just show up.
I also think that demos at boogies are stupid. Take a jumper that might normally jump at a cessna dz and they only have a 100 jumps. Suddenly they are at Rantol and they have mutiple, large aircraft dumping people all over the place. Then you want to loan them a new canopy in a new rig?
Hell, I don't demo stuff at boogies. I want to know my canopy and gear very well in a hectic environment.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
firstime 0
***
Ron -- Why the emphasis on the waiver? That may be relevant from a DZ liability standpoint, but it does nothing to prevent someone from doing something stupid. I think the thread was motivated by a desire to protect the jumper, not the DZ. Without commenting on this specific situation -- which I'm not qualified to judge -- I like the idea that people who care about me will let me know when I'm making poor choices.
I think you need to read between his lines. It's
disgusts with ignorance
Ron -- Why the emphasis on the waiver? That may be relevant from a DZ liability standpoint, but it does nothing to prevent someone from doing something stupid. I think the thread was motivated by a desire to protect the jumper, not the DZ. Without commenting on this specific situation -- which I'm not qualified to judge -- I like the idea that people who care about me will let me know when I'm making poor choices.
I think you need to read between his lines. It's
disgusts with ignorance
PhreeZone 20
BT-60... I knew that you would be one of the ones that knew. You, and Dave for sure 
Totally agree.
1,2,3 ok.. I can grant you that but the same can be said for the first jump anyone gets on their own rig. #4 was'nt even coming into play on this really.
This last year at WFFC the largest change I made to my gear was Birdman suit on/Birdman suit off. I want to know the canopy extremely well with that type of atmosphere.
QuoteOh I am sure, but you have to admit that at only 40ish jumps she is not tuned in to any canopy yet, much less a new one.
Totally agree.
QuoteNew DZ (1) with a new rig (2) and new parachute (3) while learning a new type of skydive (4) is way to many thing that *could* go wrong.
1,2,3 ok.. I can grant you that but the same can be said for the first jump anyone gets on their own rig. #4 was'nt even coming into play on this really.
I guess you fell that students should only learn at one DZ then right? Since they will be under a new rig, a different canopy and a new DZ their first time at a DZ right?QuoteI think one of the dumbest things gear retailers do is lend new canopies to jumpers that just show up.
Whoa... we agree againQuoteHell, I don't demo stuff at boogies. I want to know my canopy and gear very well in a hectic environment.
This last year at WFFC the largest change I made to my gear was Birdman suit on/Birdman suit off. I want to know the canopy extremely well with that type of atmosphere.Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
If Phree's info is correct, it's not that much of a problem. If the jumper in question has been made aware of these issues, and thinks about it I would approve unless I heard any additional information.
----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.
Ron 10
QuoteBT-60... I knew that you would be one of the ones that knew. You, and Dave for sure
My first HP jump was on a BT-50...And if I am right it was probley the same S&TA...WN?
QuoteQuote
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New DZ (1) with a new rig (2) and new parachute (3) while learning a new type of skydive (4) is way to many thing that *could* go wrong.
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1,2,3 ok.. I can grant you that but the same can be said for the first jump anyone gets on their own rig. #4 was'nt even coming into play on this really.
Well I would prefer that a low timer jumped gear as close to the same size and type they are used to when they show up at a new DZ.
I would like to see people familiar with the DZ befroe they try new things.
All accidents are the result of events. The more new things you try to do...The more events are happening, and the more chances something will go wrong. The less new things you have to deal with the higher the chances that you will react correctly to a bad event.
A bad spot is an event....Most people can handle it.
A bad spot at a strange DZ is bad.
A bad spot on unfamilar gear is bad.
A bad spot on a strange DZ with unfamilar gear is the worst event that can happen.
QuoteI guess you fell that students should only learn at one DZ then right? Since they will be under a new rig, a different canopy and a new DZ their first time at a DZ right?
*Students* yes, no doubt one DZ. I have seen different DZ's teach in different ways. Many times these differences confuse the student.
*Novices* should go to new DZ's. It is part of the sport. However, they should try to keep the variables to as few as possible.
QuoteWhoa... we agree again This last year at WFFC the largest change I made to my gear was Birdman suit on/Birdman suit off. I want to know the canopy extremely well with that type of atmosphere.
It is this reason I have never jumped a BM suit....The canopies I have I have been told are not the best choices. I have had people offer to lend me a rig....
But that would be:
1. New type of jump.
2. New rig.
3. New canopy.
Thats two to many new things....Can I do it? Most likley. *Should* I do it? No.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
PhreeZone 20
>It is this reason I have never jumped a BM suit....The canopies I have I have been told are not the best choices.
Take that to the BM fourm. I'm yet to jump one on something less then a Jedei. Your Stiletto is just fine in my opinion.
And I knew you'd know who I was refering to also. I trust him more then I trust most people in safety terms.
Take that to the BM fourm. I'm yet to jump one on something less then a Jedei. Your Stiletto is just fine in my opinion.
And I knew you'd know who I was refering to also.
I trust him more then I trust most people in safety terms.Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
Tink1717 2
Sounds like a candidate for a Darwin Award.
Good luck.
Good luck.Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off.
-The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!)
AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717
-The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!)
AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717
winsor 236
QuoteI know that I'm relatively new to the sport and have a lot to learn, but I have got to ask about this.
A friend is looking to go to a DZ that she's not that familiar with, jump a rig that's not hers and doesn't fit right, borrow an elliptical canopy to jump (she'll still be less than a 1:1 wingloading), and try and learn to sit fly. It's also been about a month since she jumped. And the DZ that she's going to jump at has a lot more air traffic than she's used to as well as various obstacles - trees, swoop pond.
My reaction to the above is DO NOT DO IT!! Too many variables...to many things that are new.
Am I correct with my reaction to it? Is my fear for her safety justified?
I think concern beats fear.
The biggest concern here is the size of the harness; if it is not secure, it will not be used, period. An appropriate rig, with AAD and large enough main and reserve will be found.
The initial suggestion of a BT-60 (175 sq. ft.) was based on the jumper's normal canopy being a Sabre 150. When the number of jumps became apparent, a PD-170 (for a 0.75:1 wingloading) was put in its place. I learned to ask about total experience after encounteriing someone who went right to a Class IV elliptical right off student status, so his high-performance experience was close to his total experience (he's still alive).
I have a dozen ramair rigs assembled and in date, a total of 19 ramair mains, ranging from 99 to 340 sq. ft., and 4 CYPRESes. I have put together an appropriate combination for someone coming in from out of town on numerous occasions, and this is no different.
I agree that the combination of low experience, uncurrency, and a host of other variables thrown in make staying in one piece more of an effort. By focusing on safety, the level of risk can be made manageable, nonetheless.
I think making low pressure hop and pops with forgiving gear during the cold weather months can make things a lot safer at the beginning of the season in the spring.
There is no pressure for anyone to get in over their head and become a casualty - quite the opposite. I appreciate the people who have looked out for me, and try to pass it on.
Blue skies,
Winsor
kallend 2,027
QuoteI know that I'm relatively new to the sport and have a lot to learn, but I have got to ask about this.
A friend is looking to go to a DZ that she's not that familiar with, jump a rig that's not hers and doesn't fit right, borrow an elliptical canopy to jump (she'll still be less than a 1:1 wingloading), and try and learn to sit fly. It's also been about a month since she jumped. And the DZ that she's going to jump at has a lot more air traffic than she's used to as well as various obstacles - trees, swoop pond.
My reaction to the above is DO NOT DO IT!! Too many variables...to many things that are new.
Am I correct with my reaction to it? Is my fear for her safety justified?
Since you jump at SDC you undoubtedly know a whole bunch of people (including me) who jumped lightly loaded elliptical canopies when they had 40 jumps.
I don't see the shape of the canopy as the issue here. The other things you mentioned (harness fit, strange DZ, etc.) are way more likely to be a problem.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
Ron 10
QuoteI know that I'm relatively new to the sport and have a lot to learn, but I have got to ask about this.
A friend is looking to go to a DZ that she's not that familiar with, jump a rig that's not hers and doesn't fit right, borrow an elliptical canopy to jump (she'll still be less than a 1:1 wingloading), and try and learn to sit fly. It's also been about a month since she jumped. And the DZ that she's going to jump at has a lot more air traffic than she's used to as well as various obstacles - trees, swoop pond.
Winsor is one of the few people I trust without question.
There are plenty of folks that I would not, but I would give my kids to Winsor to teach and walk away knowing that he will do the best possible job.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
QuoteWinsor is one of the few people I trust without question.
There are plenty of folks that I would not, but I would give my kids to Winsor to teach and walk away knowing that he will do the best possible job.
Says a lot and eases some concerns greatly. Thanks!
Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.
Because you can only tell an adult so many times that they are making a bad choice. After a while they tell you to fuck off, or just stop listening to you.
You can talk to people till they are blue in the face and they will not listen if they don't want to listen.
I can't tell you the number of times that I have had conversations just like this before.....
ME: ya know thats a bad idea.
Them: I'll be fine.
Me: You are pushing it a bit to fast, and might get hurt.
Them :You don't know me.
Me:I have seen many people do the same thing and get hurt.
Them: I am smarter, faster, better than they were.
Me: Thats what they all thought as well.
Them: Leave me alone, you are just jelious.
Me: No, I am concerned.
Then: Did I ask you to be concerned...Who are you my Dad?
Me: No.
Them: Then leave me alone.
Many times the best thing you can do is say: Thats a bad idea.
Then wait around to write the accident report.
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