Katherine 0 #51 December 6, 2007 Quote unfortuntly i run booze emphoriums in london which means hardly enough time to even jump. (1 - 2 days a week max) ( and i tend to rant on about things) limited time for jumping? why not try the tunnel If I want to get better at 4-way but can't really afford the time away at the weekends to go to the DZ, then the tunnel is a much better option (40 mins of coached 4-way in one eve for £100 each) For 3 months after xmas I'm not rally goign to be able to get out to the DZ, but Iu can still take part by doing 1 night a month in the wind tunnel. Some people try wind tunnels and don't like it, other people love it as much as skydiving (you can go up!). Personal preference. And it is sociable, you sit around and chat when you aren't flying.Leeds University Skydiving Club www.skydiveleeds.co.uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crashtested 0 #52 December 6, 2007 Quote Well sorry to say I do not agree with you in the slightest. If your profile is correct and you are loading a 190 at 1.56 then stay away from wind tunnels do loads of hop and pops and practise your landings. WHO recommended such a high wing loading at 60 jumps, I am for one thing sure it wasn't a tunnel rat!! I have been into kite surfing at one point.. quick reactions.. confident.. lucky..walking accident report, plus some othe canopy related sports, and feel good in all wind conditions. and keep myself current. if i don't jump for a few weeks than i upsize.. back to a 210. ( i don't have anything to prove) Check out the thread on the forums regarding PLF's some people with 300 + jumps still using PLF as there first choice of landing. thats a lot scarier than my wingloading!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pinkfairy 0 #53 December 8, 2007 I strongly object to this anti-fun post: this is like religious fundamentalists who try to stop people dancing. People like doing it, so it must be stopped. No seriously, get yourself some tunnel time and fly and have fun. You have to try it to know if you like it or not. I can't really see the connection between the tunnel and the fact that newcomers could be welcomed better at some Dropzones. I've had all kinds of jumpers help me or socialize with me, including people with tunnel time. Relax, you can die if you mess up, but it will probably not be by bullet. I'm a BIG, TOUGH BIGWAY FORMATION SKYDIVER! What are you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #54 December 8, 2007 Spot on. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflysteve 0 #55 December 12, 2007 Check out the thread on the forums regarding PLF's some people with 300 + jumps still using PLF as there first choice of landing. thats a lot scarier than my wingloading ------------------------------------------------------------ Funny that, on my last canopy course with Scott Miller in Deland we all had to show we could do a PLF irrespective of jump numbers even though jumpers on the course had a 1000 jumps or more!!. The fact you have landed on different wings such as kite surfing i do not think is really relevant to a parachute landing. Have you tried the wind tunnel yet??Swooping, huh? I love that stuff ... all the flashing lights and wailing sirens ... it's very exciting! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crashtested 0 #56 December 12, 2007 Quote Check out the thread on the forums regarding PLF's some people with 300 + jumps still using PLF as there first choice of landing. thats a lot scarier than my wingloading ------------------------------------------------------------ Funny that, on my last canopy course with Scott Miller in Deland we all had to show we could do a PLF irrespective of jump numbers even though jumpers on the course had a 1000 jumps or more!!. I think it is a little messed up when people with 300 jumps are using a plf to land with everytime they jump.... thats dangerous in my book, not funny. The fact you have landed on different wings such as kite surfing i do not think is really relevant to a parachute landing. Speed, angle of decent, canopy control are all relevent, in both kite and skydive. you know that we use very simular wings???? Have you tried the wind tunnel yet?? Not yet.. although i will, as i was wrong to form an opinion on somthing i had not tried.. I just need to open my mind b4 i go. I still think the bpa was wrong to go in with airkix over bedford though!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
redlegphi 0 #57 December 13, 2007 Quote I think it is a little messed up when people with 300 jumps are using a plf to land with everytime they jump.... thats dangerous in my book, not funny. What's so "dangerous" about a PLF? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #58 December 13, 2007 QuoteQuote I think it is a little messed up when people with 300 jumps are using a plf to land with everytime they jump.... thats dangerous in my book, not funny. What's so "dangerous" about a PLF? You should not have more than 300 jump to perform a good stand-up landing under a decent wing. A superior pilot makes good decisions to avoid having the chance require his/her superior skills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
redlegphi 0 #59 December 13, 2007 That doesn't answer my question. What is so dangerous about a PLF? Or, to put it another way, how is a PLF more dangerous than a stand-up landing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skytash 0 #60 December 13, 2007 Quote I still think the bpa was wrong to go in with airkix over bedford though!! what is the BPA to do - it is approached by airkix for an idea, I believe speaks tobedford and asks if they are interested to which bedford said they weren't (and I'm happy to be corrected on this one) and then gets stick for not having 'picked' bedford? Before saying something is wrong, it is useful to know all the facts. I'm sending Paul a link to this post so that if I am wrong, he can correct me. tashDon't ever save anything for a special occasion. Being alive is a special occasion. Avril Sloe Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crashtested 0 #61 December 13, 2007 QuoteThat doesn't answer my question. What is so dangerous about a PLF? Or, to put it another way, how is a PLF more dangerous than a stand-up landing? PLF onto concrete, than do a stand up landing on concrete and tell me which one hurt more? come into land in a tight area maybe onto rocky ground.. do the same thing..one plf one stand up.. i think its clear. also i'm Pretty sure one reason why people don't use rounds is becasue the injury rate was higher.. that is fact. just check out injury rates on raps, aff, and rounds. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #62 December 13, 2007 Quotealso i'm Pretty sure one reason why people don't use rounds is becasue the injury rate was higher.. that is fact I'm pretty sure you're wrong.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,070 #63 December 14, 2007 >What is so dangerous about a PLF? A PLF is not dangerous. If you are prepared to do a PLF on every jump, good for you. If you HAVE to do a PLF on every jump because you are landing hard, even after 300 jumps, then there might be a problem there. PLF's help you survive hard landings, and can turn a broken femur into a slightly sprained wrist or sore back. They should be used when you screw up and/or when events conspire to cause you to have a hard landing - you should NOT need them on a regular basis. They're like reserves. Good to have just in case, bad to need on every jump. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crashtested 0 #64 December 14, 2007 QuoteQuotealso i'm Pretty sure one reason why people don't use rounds is becasue the injury rate was higher.. that is fact I'm pretty sure you're wrong. 1.65 in every hundred injure themselves on rounds 0.58 in every hundred injure themselves on squares BPA STATS not mine Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vertigofreefly 0 #65 December 16, 2007 If we get back to the original subject on this thread; then yes there defiantly seems to be a downturn in the jumper population at UK DZ’s. Since the opening of the tunnels especially in winter most jumpers like the idea of training in the tunnel rather than freezing on a cold DZ. The only downside of this is that we will eventually produce people who have good freefall skills but shit canopy control and landings. We in the UK see top teams doing hundreds of hours in the tunnel but when they get on the DZ and under canopy they don’t have the same canopy skills in relation to what they have in freefall. What I’m saying is that to be a good all round accomplished skydivers we should spend equal amount of time in the tunnel and on the DZ. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
woodpecker 0 #66 December 16, 2007 Quote I just don't understand why it's the wind tunnels' fault. Quote Yeah...wind tunnels don't suck. They BLOW! Actually, Bedford sucks.....not blows. Just to throw that out there. LOL This thread has moved in so many directions where to start. hmmmmm I jump in the UK and yes in the winter when the rain/wind isnt screwing it up and what can I say...suck it up and dress warm. I've also experience good/bad in many DZ's here in the UK. I've had great experiences at some and shitty at others...hell I've even had shitty, went back and had a great time. Tunnels, yes you can live without them, but what a training tool. I too entered this sport to have fun and be in the air, but when it was crappy one month last year I went to bedford and what an experience. After 150 or so jumps I realized I suck...I was all over the place. That being said I enjoy the tunnels for training and it actually had a kind of DZ feel to it (at least at bedford). Go to bedford, enjoy yourself, and remember....just because your a skydiver doesnt mean you know anything. You'll understand the minute you get into the tunnel. Its quite a humbling experience. BPA- they dont have to worry about scaring away jumpers with doing whatever with the team....their membership fees are going to kill it over here. Its absolutely redic. but thats for another thread.SONIC WOODY #146 There is a fine line between cockiness and confidence -- which side of the line are you on? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UKFSChick 0 #67 December 17, 2007 Hi Sam Sounds like you've had a couple of crappy experiences at UK Dzs, I'm sorry about that. There was an article in Skydiving a while ago which talked about poor retention in the sport. Unfortunately, most DZs are not brilliant at marketing - neither acquisition or retention. Most DZs don't have big budgets and most don't have specialist marketing people. Personally I agree that it would be great if instructors and long-time jumpers made more of an effort to encourage new people to stay in the sport (retention), but mostly people just want to do their 'job' and don't look at the bigger picture. DZs make their money from tandems and it is not really their responsibility to 'grow the sport'. Wind tunnels on the other hand are a great way to get people to try a jump. Airkix especially targets non-skydivers and they have the marketing knowledge and budget to reach a large audience of non-jumpers (through TV, radio and national papers) - something DZs don't generally have. Once a first time flyer tries tunnel flying it is a short step to connect their experience to skydiving. Airkix has links with DZs and promo material all over the walls about the sport of skydiving. They have sponsored skydiving teams. This in itself serves to grow the sport in a way DZs can't. On top of that, all top teams train at wind tunnels. These training tools allow skydivers to excel in the sport, which in turn generates media exposure for skydiving. Coverage of skydiving in the general press as a sport (as opposed to just a horrible way to die ) promotes a positive image which encourages people to contact DZs to make a jump. And maybe, to become skydivers... The BPA in addition has also done a lot to promote positive coverage of the sport in the general press (see the BPA website), even though, as someone else mentioned, it is not actually their remit... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crashtested 0 #68 December 17, 2007 QuoteHi Sam Sounds like you've had a couple of crappy experiences at UK Dzs, I'm sorry about that. There was an article in Skydiving a while ago which talked about poor retention in the sport. Unfortunately, most DZs are not brilliant at marketing - neither acquisition or retention. Most DZs don't have big budgets and most don't have specialist marketing people. Personally I agree that it would be great if instructors and long-time jumpers made more of an effort to encourage new people to stay in the sport (retention), but mostly people just want to do their 'job' and don't look at the bigger picture. DZs make their money from tandems and it is not really their responsibility to 'grow the sport'. The BPA in addition has also done a lot to promote positive coverage of the sport in the general press (see the BPA website), even though, as someone else mentioned, it is not actually their remit... I Was at a crimbo party for a DZ the other night, had a great time out there, god chats with a lot of people from the DZ (Tandem factory) about the state of play. They are now looking to do somthing about it, i can't say all as its hush hush, but they are combining what you have mentioned above, and buisness thinking, I hope a lot of DZ's go down this route, just so the popularity increases and DZ's are a cool place to hang out again. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tinay 0 #69 December 17, 2007 Be careful! Don't mention wind tunnels and certainly don't mention skydiving competitions in wind tunnels! Because sooner or later some tree hugging government offical will say why do we need to was waste fuel flying aircraft when all skydiving can be done in a wind tunnel? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fedykin 0 #70 December 19, 2007 Thats an interesting perspective... You've taken a number of sepparate issues and blended them up a fair bit, ill throw my 2p into the mix. Tunnels- No other technology has sped up the development and progression of skydivers as much as tunnels. The skill set development of all jumpers that choose to integrate is unbelievable. I know a couple people that took a pretty puritan attitude to the tunnel, oddly enough before they went into the tunnel. Some things you cannot learn in the tunnel such as tracking, but still the body awareness you develop fast forwards your development in the air. The sport is whatever it is to you. If its all about being in the air, then great though to be honest you'd probably enjoy it more, faster if you integrate the tunnel. The BPA- id agree with them to be frank(a first) that the tunnel is the best introduction to the sport and a great way of bringing more people into the sport For a host of reasons. Other ways to scare ourselves... Im not sure what you mean. Do you mean that the primary focus of what you and others should do in the sport is fear seeking? if so, then thats an interesting perspective, it may make skills progression a bit slow.... Im extreemly critical of the BPA on the whole though like governments, the members/citizens tend to get the government they deserve. I wouldnt point the finger so much at the council as much as the members. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crashtested 0 #71 December 21, 2007 TBH i did not really have an agenda when entering the sport, I m as your rightly pointed out a bit of a purist with the sports i entered. I objected to the introducion of jetskis in surfing as it destroyed my philosiphy of the sport. Don't get me wrong seeing the Big boys charging down 60ft face waves is pretty cool, but maybe they should learn how to paddle faster!!! its been a good thread though, and its good to see other peoples points of veiws, I'm going to give bedford wind tunnel a shot, one evening and will, add a thread about how i felt it went, atmosphere and the whole experiance. As a final point of consideration, how many accidents this year, were related to free fall, and how many were related to canopy piloting? It makes you wonder if wind tunnel is the extra training everyone needs!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fedykin 0 #72 December 21, 2007 Well.... again, you've taken a number of very sepparate issues and confused them somewhat. The tunnel on the whole doesnt tend to focus on what i would consider to be safety issues(though innevitably it will contribute to it) what most people focus on is skill refinement ie... getting better at whatever it is that they do. So to that end, i dont think you'll see a super pronounced decrease in free fall collisions. In terms of canopy work, well yes incidents have spiked a number of times, thats got more to do with culture(the UK is horrendous for it) and educations(not bad). Ive been in the sport for a bit of time and i can attest to how much freefly(all aspects 3 way, Vrw, angled etc..) have developed since wind tunnels really came to saturation point(not there yet!). People are doing things that would normally take 10 000 jumps in less than 500, have a look at Adam Mattacola, bad assed, only 500 i think. The sport is on fast forward which is great for everyone. This technology is accessable to all, jumpers and non jumpers alike. On a similar note, jet ski's. As i understand it they tend to get used to access really big waves. Waves soo big that no human could possibly paddle fast enough. And as a result of the development people are doing things not possible before. Positive development. I think so. Rather similar to skydiving. If you want to develop more and faster in ways not realisitically possible in the sky(time and spacial reference limitations) then use the tunnel. If you want to take 1000's of jumps getting to where someone can be in a week, then crack on. I think its a bit like a caveman snubbing a zippo. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Adriandavies 0 #73 January 11, 2008 What do you think now that this has been announced? Skydive Sibson re-launches as Skydive Airkix Written by UKSkydiver UKS Exclusive! Skydive Sibson is now know as Skydive Airkix. The name change comes along with major plans for the DZ. Dave Turner will manage the business, while Airkix will bring in renowned coaches, planning to work between the DZ and the Airkix wind tunnel and also a new AFF scheme for students. Following the 2006 fire, the team are building a a brand new, purpose-built bar, restaurant and clubroom, offering food, drinks and of course a fully stocked bar. On the aircraft front Skydive Airkix will now sport a permanent, overhauled Let 410, but the best thing surely is the fact that altitude rides will cost skydivers only £15! A very novel aspect of this change is that the DZ is offering jumpers the chance to aid the environment by joining an optional carbon ofsetting scheme. By adding a voluntary £2 to each jump ticket, Skydive Airkix will pay into a recognised established offset programme, perhaps aleviating fears that the government will target the skydiving industry next! New name; Skydive Airkix New partners; Dave Turner, the Meacock family, Airkix Best regular skydiver prices; £15 to altitude Permanent LET 410 turbine aircraft New coaching programmes Cross benefits between wind tunnel and drop zone New AFF programmes New Clubhouse, bar, restaurant Free WiFi First UK Carbon Offset programme on a DZ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Casurf1978 0 #74 January 12, 2008 I really think you need to spend more time in the sport and at tunnel locations. The tunnels I've been to here are all very social settings. Skydivers come in and it's almost like being at the DZ. IMO tunnels will help out our sport in the long term. Here in so cal your looking at spending $2500 plus to get your 'A'. And that's it if you dont fail any levels, which are like $200 a pop. Now you can take those $200 and spend 10 min in a tunnel which will help you out or spend it on another aff jump. After my first jump in my AFF I did 15 min tunnel time which helped me out tremendously in passing the AFF course. I also know a few jumpers who have hurt their necks or back and cant jump due to the opening shock of the canopy. The doc wants them to wait at least 6 months. Guess where they are 'jumping' now...at the tunnel. I know of another skydiver who is very frustrated on his belly, he wants to compete in rw. Guess where he is refining his skills...at the tunnel. Tunnels are great tool and will never replace the feeling one gets when you jump out of a plane. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crashtested 0 #75 January 13, 2008 cool stuff, everyones a winner here by the looks of it.... Never new this was going ahead.. i think this is great news for all parties involved, and for the sport in england in general. I'm there... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
