Diesel aircraft

[johndh1 0]

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The primary push for diesel engines comes from Africa and parts of Asia, where it is almost impossible to find avgas.

But much like democracy, human rights, nutrition, innovation and productivity, it's probably as unlikely there as well.

Roll Tide Roll

[godfrog 2]

when I hear about a diesel engine in an airplane it makes me picture a guy unshaven, beer gut, a cigar clenched in his teeth, a couple of control levers sticking out of the floor, big twin stacks sticking above the wings and as they roll down the runway plumes of black smoke and each gear as they go for 5th and over before the end of the runway, and can you imagine the new radio lingo,

Experience is a difficult teacher, she gives you the test first and the lesson afterward

[JohnRich 4]

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Yep. Same engine, different fuel. Still a bit more efficient than an Otto-cycle engine.

Who the heck is "Otto"?

[airtwardo 7]

BTW the Diamond DA42 is a new, certificated diesel twin that's doing pretty well in GA circles.

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'doing pretty well' is relative Bill...

There was one at Oshkosh this year that was being used to follow the Europe to US helicopter gang, problem was the Diamond kept pooping out, and couldn't really carry enough weight to be a useful chase plane.
It was still sitting in the grass well after the EAA convention waiting for parts.

And then there is the one that crashed shortly after take off, it seems that the engine runs off the battery which was low.
When they retracted the gear it drained what was left and the noise maker quit. There are no indicators (I'm told) in the cockpit to monitor battery power or generator failure.

I was at the Gap, France DZ last week and someone at the airport had one of that companies single engine low wing diesel planes...he was telling me it was 140 hp but flew like a 180 hp aircraft...judging from the slow climb out he was making I have to wonder if he was being real accurate with that statement.

But looking at the difference in price between the 2 fuels over there, I can certainly see the attraction!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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[diablopilot 2]

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when I hear about a diesel engine in an airplane it makes me picture a guy unshaven, beer gut, a cigar clenched in his teeth, a couple of control levers sticking out of the floor, big twin stacks sticking above the wings and as they roll down the runway plumes of black smoke and each gear as they go for 5th and over before the end of the runway, and can you imagine the new radio lingo,

I would so fucking jump that plane!

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Zing 2]

"... when I hear about a diesel engine in an airplane it makes me picture a guy unshaven, beer gut, a cigar clenched in his teeth, a couple of control levers sticking out of the floor, big twin stacks sticking above the wings and as they roll down the runway plumes of black smoke and each gear ..."

Pretty well describes some of the Twin Beechs and DC-3s I've flown.

Zing Lurks

[Gary73 10]

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>So they run on a diesel engine principle, where the compression
>causes the ignition, without spark plugs?

Yep. Same engine, different fuel. Still a bit more efficient than an Otto-cycle engine.

Actually turbines use a glow plug or spark plug ("igniter") to get the flame going. After startup that system is shut down, since the flame in the combustion section is continuous, kind of like in a gas or oil furnace.

For any given power output, diesel engines are heavier than gasoline engines, and way heavier than turbines. From an engineering point of view, the main advantage to a diesel is the lower fuel consumption per horsepower, so diesels are a good choice for long flights, where the lower fuel weight makes up for the higher engine weight. I'm not sure they'd be a good choice for jump planes, where fuel tanks are rarely filled and the plane spends most of its time climbing, where weight is so critical.

I'll stick with a nice PT-6 turbine, or better yet, two oversized ones on a King Air. Once you're used to nine minutes to fourteen grand, anything slower is torture.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan

[RMURRAY 1]

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The primary push for diesel engines comes from Africa and parts of Asia, where it is almost impossible to find avgas.

diesel is the future, here is a good article from dieselair.com which expands on what you stated.......rm

News of September 30, 2007
When will the aerodiesel revolution reach the United States?

My perception from the fascinating feedback I get through questions from subscribers, and from my own experience when I happen to fly in France and interview European private pilots, is clear: Outside the United States, including even Canada and Mexico, everyone is aware that the aero diesel engine is not the best way but the only way for small piston-engined aircraft to find a new future. Whether it is because of poor availability of Avgas, or of a humongous price difference between Avgas and JetA ($16 per gallon against 6 in some parts of Africa!), or because of the unique advantages of diesel in terms of much longer range, higher altitude therefore more speed for same power, security in case or low fuel, much simpler learning process for the student pilot (one single control instead of 3 even in constant speed propeller, accurate power control on final approaches, highly increased payload on shorter distances), the world is convinced.
What about the US? It is coming, but still very slowly. The US has by far the largest fleet of piston-engined planes (some two thirds of the world) including a large fleet of old, airworthy 172s and 182s which can be converted right now. But the owners of these planes all do the same reasoning: If my plane is worth, say, $80,000, and it costs $65 to 85,000 to convert it, why don't I simply trade my plane for a better, more expensive plane instead of taking the risk of losing market value? And how can I amortize such an investment with my small flying time of say 50 to 100 hours per annum and with hardly any difference between JetA and Avgas prices?
Yet,it is coming surely because, as sales develop, the market value of diesel planes will soon consolidate and show a gain; and because, as exposure increases, US pilots will see for themselves that a diesel plane is not any ordinary plane spending less on fuel, but a very superior plane, as Europeans already know.
If you are a private pilot in the US, and are considering right now buying any piston-engined airplane worth between $200,000 and 800,000, whether used or new, contact us. We will tell you what the diesel market offers right at the time we receive your inquiry.

[billvon 2,998]

>Actually turbines use a glow plug . . .

Right. But diesel engines that run on JP4 work exactly like diesel engines, just with a different fuel.

>For any given power output, diesel engines are heavier than gasoline
>engines . . .

There's no reason they have to be. In most designs they are designed more "heavy duty" to accommodate the higher compression ratio. But we had a diesel running our power system for a while that was the same weight/size as the gasoline engine it replaced; indeed I think it was the same basic engine.

>From an engineering point of view, the main advantage to a diesel is the
> lower fuel consumption per horsepower . . .

And the increase in reliability from the removal of ignition systems and throttle plates.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Yep. Same engine, different fuel. Still a bit more efficient than an Otto-cycle engine.

Who the heck is "Otto"?

He was Nicolaus Otto , the most famous inventor of the internal combustion engines in use.

Desciption of the
The Otto cycle.

[Gary73 10]

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Right. But diesel engines that run on JP4 work exactly like diesel engines, just with a different fuel.

Yes, but I think he was asking about turbine vs. diesel engines, not jet-fuel vs. diesel-fuel diesel engines.

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There's no reason they have to be [heavier].

There may be a few specific exceptions, but in almost all cases the diesels are heavier. The Thielerts, for example, are heavier than the Lycoming and Continental avgas engines that they are intended to replace, and the Thielerts are brand-new technology while the avgas engines are 1930s technology.

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And the increase in reliability from the removal of ignition systems and throttle plates.

Yeah, diesels have that reputation, but the Thielerts don't seem to be living up to it yet. Maybe in a few years.

Don't get me wrong: diesels have their place, and maybe even in some long-range aircraft; I just don't think they're a good choice for jump planes.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan

[squirrel 0]

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Yep. Same engine, different fuel. Still a bit more efficient than an Otto-cycle engine.

Who the heck is "Otto"?

He was Nicolaus Otto , the most famous inventor of the internal combustion engines in use.

Desciption of the
The Otto cycle.

didnt the word "Automobile" come from his name?

________________________________
Where is Darwin when you need him?

[airtwardo 7]

Here's a pic of the diesel single engine I saw in Gap, France last week.

I saw one at Oshkosh this year as well...would have liked to taken ride, it's a great looking aircraft!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[ZigZagMarquis 9]

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>

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Actually turbines use a glow plug . . .

Right. But diesel engines that run on JP4 work exactly like diesel engines, just with a different fuel.

Yes... No.

I'm sure there are still some turbines out there with glow plug and ballast (vacuum tube) ignition systems, but many (most ?), I'm guessing have been replaced with an electronic ignition system which uses something more spark plug like.




I believe Van Prey Jr. and his wife, Emiko, are operating a diesel 206 on an east coast DZ somewhere.

[skyblu3 0]

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The primary push for diesel engines comes from Africa and parts of Asia, where it is almost impossible to find avgas.

I'm confuse

Didn't we say these aircraft still run on AvGas or Jet Fuel, whatever.

[billvon 2,998]

>I'm sure there are still some turbines out there with glow plug and ballast . . .

Right. I was talking about diesel engines, not turbine engines.

We're talking about two separate issues here:

1. Diesel/Otto/turbine engines, each of which can run on a variety of fuels. Diesels can run on 'standard' petroleum-based diesel, biodiesel, vegetable oil or kerosene/JP4.

2. Fuel types. There are a lot of fuel types, many of which can be used in different engines.

[2fat2fly 0]

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I'm sure there are still some turbines out there with glow plug

Ther are some PT-6's still running glow plug ignition but there's becoming less and less industry support for it.

I am not the man. But the man knows my name...and he's worried

[vpjr 18]

I believe Van Prey Jr. and his wife, Emiko, are operating a diesel 206 on an east coast DZ somewhere.

[vpjr 18]

I'll stick with a nice PT-6 turbine, or better yet, two oversized ones on a King Air. Once you're used to nine minutes to fourteen grand, anything slower is torture.

[ryoder 1,590]

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If I wanted black, greasy smoke, I would go back to jumping the DC-3.

But with diesel, you also get a pilot with a ten-gallon hat, 6x9 inch belt-buckle, cowboy boots, and the plane comes equipped with a CB-radio in place of the NavCom.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[ZigZagMarquis 9]

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I believe Van Prey Jr. and his wife, Emiko, are operating a diesel 206 on an east coast DZ somewhere.

We are not running a Diesel on our planes yet but I keep talking about it to everyone that will listen. I want to shorten the climb times for me and the up jumpers, reduce the fuel burn, and make the 206 an airplane that you can give to a low time pilot with out him screwing up the engine. Changing tires is easier than cylinders.

[377 22]

The Germans had Jumo Diesel engines on certain models of their WW 2 JU 88 twin engine bomber. Hard to get comparable HP to weight ratios between avgas spark ignited engines and compression ignited diesels. I have trusted my life to diesels during years as a commercial tuna fisherman, often thousands of miles from shore. In my experience if you push too hard in making a diesel lightweight, reliability always suffers. The ones that go 30,000 hours without an overhaul are usually the big heavy ones, like old school CATs, Cummins and Jimmys. All steel and cast iron, no aluminum. Although electronic controls (FADEC) are making diesels more efficient, I loved the old ones which would not miss a beat during a total electrical failure.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[feuergnom 28]

slightly off-topic:
automobile is in fact an odd mixture off greek and latin. for the lingofreaks it should be either ipsomobil (latin) or autokineton (greek)

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[mr2mk1g 10]

That's why I always call those one wheel thingys "monocylces".

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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The Germans had Jumo Diesel engines on certain models of their WW 2 JU 88 twin engine bomber. Hard to get comparable HP to weight ratios between avgas spark ignited engines and compression ignited diesels. I have trusted my life to diesels during years as a commercial tuna fisherman, often thousands of miles from shore. In my experience if you push too hard in making a diesel lightweight, reliability always suffers. The ones that go 30,000 hours without an overhaul are usually the big heavy ones, like old school CATs, Cummins and Jimmys. All steel and cast iron, no aluminum. Although electronic controls (FADEC) are making diesels more efficient, I loved the old ones which would not miss a beat during a total electrical failure.

Sure, but if the lightweight one goes 3000 hrs between overhauls you are doing better than an IO550.