outside tandem video VS handicam

[riggerrob 643]

DSE,
I suspect that you missed my point about "copying" techniques, scrpits, camera angles, editing tricks, etc. from other, more experienced videographers.

I never recommended or condoned stealing footage.

[riggerrob 643]

Has it come to well, lets hire bill because he's cool and we like him and lets not hire Tony because he's not cool and popular around the dz even though Tony has better skills and is more safe than Bill?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

That depends upon the local definition of "cool."

If the local standard includes punctuality, cleanliness, cordiality and good framing, GREAT!

If "coolness" is measured by how many recreational drugs (I include caffeine, nocotine, alcohol, THC, methamphetamine, cocaine, etc.) you do with who, then I will never be "cool."

[CSpenceFLY 1]

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If "coolness" is measured by how many recreational drugs (I include caffeine, nocotine, alcohol, THC, methamphetamine, cocaine, etc.) you do with who, then I will never be "cool."

So that's why I never excelled in the dropzone environment

[mwabd1 0]

I gotta go with outside video..........primarily because I shoot video. Now I have to agree with Spence that there are way to many really bad 200-400 jump wonders doing horrible video, but the DZO must police this! I spent several hundred jumps refining my skills; with alot of RW and freeflying prior to starting, because I took the time to learn and refine my videos are consistent and I ensure that the customer gets his or her moneys worth!

.......I hereby reject your reality and instead choose to insert my own!

[livendive 8]

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>handicams because of potential snags on opening

Handicams because of potential snags on opening, the "camera factor" during the dive, and additional distractions for the TM during the exit and dive.

An experienced TM with an experienced video person is, overall, safer than using an experienced TM with a handicam.

Logic suggests that what you are saying is true, but my recollection is that there have been zero hand-cam related tandem fatalities and several vidiot/tandem collision fatalities over the years.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[CSpenceFLY 1]

They have not been doing it long. It may never happen, it may happen tomorrow.

[billvon 3,009]

>but my recollection is that there have been zero hand-cam related
>tandem fatalities and several vidiot/tandem collision fatalities over the
>years.

Right. But then again, there have been zero wingsuit-tandem fatal collisions, but several solo tandem fatalities over the past few years. That does NOT mean that buzzing a tandem with a wingsuit is safer than giving them their own airspace.

It is somewhat traditional in skydiving that you need a slew of fatalities to decide that some new trick (say, low pulls or swoops through patterns) really isn't such a good thing, and needs to be fixed. I would like to think that we could be smart enough to not need those deaths for every single issue in skydiving.

[rhys 0]

Handicam is all good, there is room for it in our industry, small operations may need to offer it in order to survive and to give thier instructors a reasonable income.

Outside camera is better if the camera flyer is skilled and puts effort into the product.

There are shit camera flyers and there are tandem masters that make shit handcam videos.

The best thing is to offer both and the customer can decide what they want for themselves.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[speedy 0]

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zero hand-cam related tandem fatalities

and the tandem in Namibia ?

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[BASE841 3]

No question, outside video shot by a good flyer kicks handycam's ass every time... except for under canopy stuff, which a camera flyer of course cannot get. Getting a student's reaction right after opening, watching them learn how to fly a canopy, all of that is wonderful and valuable.

My favorite tandem vids are a combo. At SD New Mexico, I'd jump my handycam and give the footage to the camera flyer. He'd combine my stuff with his stuff. We didn't charge extra for the additional angle.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

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We didn't charge extra for the additional angle

Good for you.

[Liemberg 0]

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A greater risk is the TI becoming too engrossed with videoing himself and forgetting to pull enough handles.

Though I agree with the first part ("becoming too engrossed") I don't think one would forget to pull handles.

However, "becoming too engrossed" CAN send you spinning-drogue-side-down with the drogue half way pulled.

("Fast?" "Uhm....")

Though it IS an invaluable "learning moment" I do think most of us would rather not go there....

Other than that - handcam has no "deathzone".

Outside video has...

In a former life I was too well trained in statistics to start 'comparing notes' here on the forum - but both handcam and outside video in all likelyhood probably have killed passengers...

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[tsalnukt 1]

Yeah...outside video peolple have screwed up and caused fatalities...so has crappy tandem masters w/o video at all.

If video flyers aren't good enough or smart enough or have enough skill to be able to do their job safely, then they have no business being out there with tandems.

In the manufacturers manual their are guidelines for people to ba able to jump with tandems...unfortunately a lot of time these rules aren't followed and people get hurt. sometimes they are with the same results. EDUCATION and training and a willingnes to learn and fly within their limitations will keep all parties safer.

It's when the EGO gets bigger than the SKILL, that's where accidents start from. There's no excuse for a video person to cause a fatality on a tandem or on any skydive.

Stop letting the crappy video guys shoot video until they can prove competency and safety.

[diablopilot 2]

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In the manufacturers manual their are guidelines for people to ba able to jump with tandems.

Maybe it's just the way I read it, but the RWS/UPT manual seems to mean to me they are REQUIREMENTS as a condition of holding and maintaining a rating. Not just a guideline, or suggestion.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[tsalnukt 1]

Sorry...I hope you didn't miss the point of my little rant b/c I used the wrong word.

People still don't follow the RULES and that is a major contributor to crappy video people colliding with tandem pairs,

[CSpenceFLY 1]

It really amazes me that we have to talk about this. Actually this should be another thread. In 1800 jumps,most video, I have never come close to hitting a tandem. I hit one 4-way team,only because they kept telling me they wanted me closer on exit. I can't believe that a DZ would let someone out with a tandem that was not 100%. What a small amount of money to be made for such a large risk.

[ryan_d_sucks 0]

To be honest, when I got my first tandem video'ed I didn't know what the difference would be. Now, getting further involved in the sport, I do. And I can still say I'm glad my TM had a handcam..

I feel like it captures the entire experience more than the outside video does. Certainly for me now, the best part of watching the video is seeing/ hearing the crazy things I said right after the canopy opens. Also seeing myself fly, and my face grimmace at spiral turns its kind of neat.

Now looking back, I think I'm a little less comfortable with the TM jumping out with me and a vidiot (NOT opposed, jsut more concerned). If I had met the vidiot and felt good, all would be well. But if I were to do another tandem today knowing what I know NOW, I would feel less comfortable with somone I dont know and whos experience I dont know jumping out with us.

Also, I'm sure there are some dangers associated with the handcam method. However I am not so well versed in them.

Bottom line: As a first time jumper I trusted my TM and was ready to jump with him. Throwing another person out there with us mgiht have made ME less confident if I had known the dangers associated with it. I greatly enjoyed the product that came from the handcam, and my favorite parts of the jump from the video are the exit, freefall, and canopy ride conversation/views. I am greatful I got to capture the canopy ride on video.

[davelepka 4]

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As a first time jumper I trusted my TM and was ready to jump with him

Based on what? You didn't know any of the players invovled, TM, DZO, pilot, you simply trusted the school to provide quality staff. Why would this not extend to a camera flyer?

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Throwing another person out there with us mgiht have made ME less confident if I had known the dangers associated with it.

How would you have known the dangers? They don't exactly advertise tandem/cameraman collisions when they try to sell outside video.

There are many video guys out there that present zero risk to a tandem. I have about 3000 tandem videos under my belt. How many TM's have 3000+ tandem jumps?

Any DZ that allows unsafe camera flyers to jump with tandems isn't a good place to be. If they are willing to cut corners in that area, what other corners are being cut?

[tsalnukt 1]

Just b/c your TM made you feel safe doesn't mean that he was. Maybe that was his first paid tandem and he was really good at fooling you? If done well with good video people then a lot of my students were glad to have a video person right in front of them and flying around and holding their hand. and smiling at them. it made them more comfortabl. Have you ever flown in front of an AFF student that is deep in concentration and smiled at them??? same same

[chris74 0]

Hello birds,
Just for info, handicam's jumps now are banned in the french Dropzones ruled by the FFP ( french Federation of Parachutisme ).
Blue skies, merry christmas and happy new year .
Chris

[redlegphi 0]

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Hello birds,
Just for info, handicam's jumps now are banned in the french Dropzones ruled by the FFP ( french Federation of Parachutisme ).
Blue skies, merry christmas and happy new year .
Chris

Do you happen to know what the reasoning behind the ban was? Was there an incident that provoked the ban?

[dragon2 2]

all handicam jumps or tandem only?

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[ryan_d_sucks 0]

As a first time jumper I trusted my TM and was ready to jump with him

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Based on what? You didn't know any of the players invovled, TM, DZO, pilot, you simply trusted the school to provide quality staff. Why would this not extend to a camera flyer?
____________________________________

Actually I had quite a bit of correspondence with him and the DZO before making the jump in the form of emails phone calls, etc. And I'm not saying it wouldn't have extended to the camera flyer, had I met him. I'm not in any way bashing the outside video, or saying which one is more safe, because I haven't been around long enough and seen enough to form a well rounded opinion.

_____________________________________
Throwing another person out there with us mgiht have made ME less confident if I had known the dangers associated with it.
______________________________________
How would you have known the dangers? They don't exactly advertise tandem/cameraman collisions when they try to sell outside video.
_____________________________________

They might find out about it from threads like this. While many tandems may show up knowing absolutely nothing about skydiving, I'd be willing to bet a fair amount do in fact read up on it a little bit. I know i certainly did. I read a lot on this website before actually making my first jump. And while dz.com may not be the best source for good skydiving literature, first time jumper doesn't know that.

Again, I'm not saying which is better or safer. I'm only saying how I felt during my jump and my satisfaction with the product I recieved. That's it.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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There are many video guys out there that present zero risk to a tandem. I have about 3000 tandem videos under my belt. How many TM's have 3000+ tandem jumps?

I am so happy for you now that you have achieved perfection. Does this extend to your entire life or just to skydiving?
I have been hit by three camera-flyers while doing tandem. One was inexperienced and was allowed into the rotation against my wishes, one had reasonable jump experience and was learning camera, and the other had 6000+ jumps including 2000 tandems and about 1000 video jumps.
There is no such thing as adding a person to the mix and adding zero risk.

[tsalnukt 1]

Do you think the US will go the way of Australia and nearly eliminate outside video or do you think that "we" can start to police ourselves and get the shitty video people to improve themselves????