mattjw916 2 #76 December 9, 2004 QuoteI don't think you ever really get "lift" out of a canopy, just a decrease in altittude loss or a planed out glide. I think my friend who shot up into the air at nearly a 45 degree angle at the end of a botched swoop under his highly loaded Onyx would have to disagree... see illustration... (he was uninjured btw) edit: I can't type!!!NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveNFlorida 0 #77 December 9, 2004 QuoteI'd imagine, since we all hear about low turns, hard landings, added danger with high wing loadings, that a great deal of the landings and probably some of those other categories were involving high wing loading. By the same logic, i'm sure there were others that were below or at recommended w/l and weren't able to vote. But, I guess we're not considering them. If you read the incident reports, it is not uncommon to see student deaths or low # deaths under student or similar gear. So, I really don't think you have grounds to say that the add'l votes of the dead skydivers would have been mostly on high w/l. -A Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Speer 0 #78 December 9, 2004 QuoteYes, I know. Tell me something new too. None has ever survived this life.... ...actually, a source I find to be very reliable indicates that both Enoch and Elijah survived this life...but they may be coming back to finish that according to some... Now, back on topic. I have been right at the maximum, but am slightly below it now due to advancing jump numbers. By the very act of participating in this sport, the participant usually must have a nature which can supply the confidence and bravado that allows them to continue. In my experience, youth tends to serve up more bravado than confidence... at least it did for me. It was always a hard sell for instructors to convince me to take time to slow down and learn to do things extremely well before building on the foundation. As many of the more experienced people in this sport have lamented, all the young hot shots believe themselves to be the exception. The more empathetic among the experienced are pained by the suffering they see about to occur... and many others feel threatened by the inevitable consequences of the injury and death in our midst. Society is moving ever more rapidly towards mandated protection of fools... and want to make things foolproof, unfortunately, we fools have proven to be rather ingenious. Our love of personal freedom leads us to reject any restriction; our lack of honest self evaluation make some restriction virtually mandatory. Our individual views on the wingloading topic reminds me of the old George Carlin routine... "Have you ever noticed how anyone driving slower than you is an absolute MORON, and the ones driving faster are F%&king MANIACS!" ...or something to that effect. As a newbie in skydiving, but very experienced in life, PLEASE listen to the wize old geezers who try to educate and counsel you in this sport. There will be plenty of time to advance... only if you survive... he sighs, knowing from his own personal behaviour that impatience and arrogance will likely prove too strong to subdue... Russ Generally, it is your choice; will your life serve as an example... or a warning? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #79 December 9, 2004 QuoteQuoteYes, I know. Tell me something new too. None has ever survived this life.... ...actually, a source I find to be very reliable indicates that both Enoch and Elijah survived this life...but they may be coming back to finish that according to some... Now, back on topic. I have been right at the maximum, but am slightly below it now due to advancing jump numbers. By the very act of participating in this sport, the participant usually must have a nature which can supply the confidence and bravado that allows them to continue. In my experience, youth tends to serve up more bravado than confidence... at least it did for me. It was always a hard sell for instructors to convince me to take time to slow down and learn to do things extremely well before building on the foundation. As many of the more experienced people in this sport have lamented, all the young hot shots believe themselves to be the exception. The more empathetic among the experienced are pained by the suffering they see about to occur... and many others feel threatened by the inevitable consequences of the injury and death in our midst. Society is moving ever more rapidly towards mandated protection of fools... and want to make things foolproof, unfortunately, we fools have proven to be rather ingenious. Our love of personal freedom leads us to reject any restriction; our lack of honest self evaluation make some restriction virtually mandatory. Our individual views on the wingloading topic reminds me of the old George Carlin routine... "Have you ever noticed how anyone driving slower than you is an absolute MORON, and the ones driving faster are F%&king MANIACS!" ...or something to that effect. As a newbie in skydiving, but very experienced in life, PLEASE listen to the wize old geezers who try to educate and counsel you in this sport. There will be plenty of time to advance... only if you survive... he sighs, knowing from his own personal behaviour that impatience and arrogance will likely prove too strong to subdue... Rusty, I feel you have captured in your words what is a continuing dilemma not just in skydiving but in life in general. Us "old geezers" are not trying to bust anyone's chops or take anything away from them. We would just like to see them be able to last long enough to become "old geezers"My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #80 December 9, 2004 QuoteObviously I'm no canopy expert, but doesn't a higher w/l mean potentially a longer recovery arc therby giving you more of a chance to level off with rears or toggles should you find yourself "in the corner" because you could've started your approach at a higher altitude? NEVER try and dig out of the corner on rears. You can and probally will induce a high speed stall on your canopy which will do nothing to slow your decent down and will end up with a Medivac call usually. For more details on why take the conversation to the Canopy fourm. As for the higher wingloading giving a longer recovery arc... you are talking a very small increase in distance. So small that if you are using the extra 25-50 feet as extra altitude then you are already in the corner to begin with.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattjw916 2 #81 December 9, 2004 Thanks for the info Phree.NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #82 December 10, 2004 Quote Regarding your question to experts on the higher wingloading = more lift. I don't think that is true. I don't think you ever really get "lift" out of a canopy, just a decrease in altittude loss or a planed out glide. To be pedantic, lift is the component of aerodynamic force acting perpindicular to the relative wind. Your vertical speed and acceleration can be positive, negative or zero. Gaining altitude is doable and often useful. When flying small parachutes with a 10,000 foot density altitude I like to swoop low enough that my feet would be below ground level if I stuck them straight down. At the end I pop back up to a comfortable landing altitude which has the nice side effect of lowering stall speed and reducing forward speed. The same trick is useful for swoop accuracy - you can turn in too close to the target, pop up, hit it, and have reduced your forward speed enough to stop within a few steps. I've used it to get over obstacles like a pond bank. When changing from my Batwing 134 to Stiletto 120 I did it un-intentionally when digging out, got higher than head height, bruised my heels, and was lucky I didn't do worse. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #83 December 10, 2004 I do agree. I`ve broken my ankle with a PD Nav220 WL<1.0. High WL won`t kill, bad decision will. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #84 December 10, 2004 Don`t worry. I have my mentors. WNE is a nice idea, but its not for my jumping culture. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elvis 0 #85 December 10, 2004 Boys and girls be safe, please!!! Don’t hasten to jump using smaller and smaller canopy! Unfortunately lately I neglected it. On my 170th jump I had already used canopy 135 ft (wingloading 1.41)! On the 26th of September after having done the last turn at the height about 30m my little skydive experience didn’t allow me to land safely. The landing was so awful that I had thought I had damages all over my body, but I was lucky, so I had broken only one leg (crisis of the left hip). Now my leg is not still good, but I hope I will jump again very soon. The combination of a big wingloading and little skill is HUGE DANGER!!! So be careful!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #86 December 10, 2004 QuoteWNE is a nice idea, but its not for my jumping culture. I nominate this for dropzone.com S&T quote of the year! Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWPoul 1 #87 December 10, 2004 So, Valentin do you consider, that you was hurt through wingloading? not through mistake on landing?Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elvis 0 #88 December 10, 2004 I did two mistakes. The first is too high wingloading and the second is unallowable low turn! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elvis 0 #89 December 10, 2004 Are you going to parabar tonight? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #90 December 10, 2004 You must have missed something. I`m not jumping in US. I`m not an USPA member..... There are a bit different habits and regulations here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWPoul 1 #91 December 10, 2004 So tell me, what is your (planing) wingloading now?:)Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #92 December 10, 2004 There are no wingloading restrictions in the US. It's not a difference in regulations, it's a difference in attitude toward safety. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWPoul 1 #93 December 10, 2004 QuoteHigh WL won`t kill, bad decision will. 100% Agree!Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #94 December 10, 2004 OK. I`m jumping in Finland. Under jump nr 250: WL shoud be less than 1.35 and no elliptical is allowed. Student can not use own gear. I have a mentors, so I can not do anything I like, just because I`m licensed skydiver... That`s the culture difference I`ve talking about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 140 #95 December 10, 2004 my WL IS 1.3-1.34 from around jump 240. DZ is at 2100ft MSL, my canopy is sub 150. So now with a bit more than 600 jumps I should be in the WNE. But have been above for a while...scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,070 #96 December 10, 2004 >The first is too high wingloading and the second is unallowable low turn! That is a very wise realization. There are a lot of people here saying "it's not the canopy size, it's whether you screw up or not!" That's literally true, but often someone's first screwup is their usage of a canopy they cannot land well. Most fatalities are the result of a string of mistakes, and most of the serious injuries/fatalities I've seen have included the mistake of jumping a small canopy they cannot fly well. (And being able to land it standing up does NOT mean you can fly the canopy well!) The sad truth is that a manuever that will bruise you under a Manta and break your leg under a Sabre 150 will kill you under a Xaos 98. So while Joe Swooper's fatal mistake might have been to toggle turn at 50 feet to face into the wind, the mistake that preceded that one was to jump a Xaos 98 instead of a Sabre 150. So the saying that "High WL won`t kill, bad decision will" is literally true - but one of those bad decisions is to jump a canopy you are not ready for. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeedToJump 0 #97 December 10, 2004 I have just under 1300 jumps and have about a 1.45 wingloading.Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unstable 9 #98 December 12, 2004 I have a 1.35isn and I have about 420 jumps - So I voted That I was below.....=========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pccoder 0 #99 December 13, 2004 I agree on your statement of big wingloading and little skill being a killer. PcCoder.net Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #100 December 13, 2004 Quote I am courious how many jumpers are actually within their limits, Depends on ambient temperature and weight fluctuations. DZ elevation here is 5000 feet MSL. In the summer the weather unit at the end of the runway has reported 10,000 foot density altitudes. Current exit weights/canopy size: Min: 170/105 = 1.61 Max: 175/105 = 1.66 According to the WNE forumula: On a cold day 2.0 - .2 for size - .2 for altitude = 1.6 On a hot day 2.0 - .2 for size - .5 for altitude = 1.3 Same wing loading for the last 800+ jumps not on my wingsuit or BASE rigs (before belly shrinkage my exit weight was 200 pounds on a 120). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
