pull at right altitude / track to avoid collision

[lynxie 0]

Are there any circumstances that would make you choose to track further than planned to avoid collision with people above you, i.e. because of a messy break off on a jump where you are below others? Even if it might make you low so you need to pull reserve.

Or do you think pulling your main at the right altitude always is higher priority than making the risk of freefall/canopy collision smaller?

-- "If you can dream it, you can DO IT!" --

[FlyinseivLP2 0]

Situtation was as follows: My group 3 way freefly followed by a solo sit out of an otter. Our group broke at 4.5K and I threw out at about 3k checked traffic and started to stow my slider when I heard a noise I didn't like. I looked up to see a blob just miss the nose of my canopy and continue past my face to hit my foot. I then see a pilot chute no more than 10 feet below me after she passed by. I was told later by the jumper that she rolled from sit at 4.5k to see she was right over the middle of our group as we were opening. She then decided to try to track to the outside of our group and then dump. Didn't work out. What was the best thing to do in this scenario? Dump at high! Sometimes it is better to do the opposite and get out high than to try to hum it low. But if I feel I am to close to someone in my group to dump next to them I have and will take it lower that I normally do.

[Zoter 0]

I guess it doesnt help at the time......but avoidance of future episodes of this situation through better exit separation and better guidance on avoiding moving into the previous groups airspace ( exit separation, turning off jump run after exit) has toi be the way to go.......
Just dumping high presents a problem to the next person who exited 'if' they didnt give a good exit separation and didnt fall straight down the tube....

[FrogNog 1]

Put simply, I fear the ground more than I fear other jumpers. I will do everything I can to avoid pulling low*.

If I knew I might have people from another group above me, I would rather pull at 2.5k and risk being hit by them than suck it down lower and risk hitting the ground. The ground never misses.

(* Full disclosure: I have opened unacceptably low at least twice so far in my jumping career. Both times were 100% my fault. Neither caused an incident.)

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[JohnMitchell 16]

There are a lot of variables, but, yes, I would take it down to avoid a possible collision (and have done so in the past). I would then get with my group on the ground and discuss how we are going to avoid that situation in the future. Our parachutes are pretty damn reliable. To say that you're going to pull at a certain altitude, no matter the hazards, might be a little short sighted. It's not good to be low and still in freefall, but it's not as dangerous as being unaware of your altitude. You'd be surprised how quickly you can complete your emergency procedures when you know you're low to start with.

[Praetorian 1]

Done it once, my 1st(beer) 12way at the end of a long training camp weekend, my 1st(beer) jump with a B lisense (jump #70 total) the planed break off had everyone of the less experienced jumpers pulling by 3000, when I started tracking one of the other novices was tracking right with me so I turned a little, Traked "harder" a "little" longer and pulled just over 2500ft.

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[Dougiefresh 0]

Was that you who flew past me as I was waving?

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. --Douglas Adams

[Lozza 0]

At the 2nd Boogie I attended I was on a 8-way. On about 3rd one, everyone else had far higher jump number than me (80) so I focused harder not to mess up, as you do. At 4 1/2k we turned and tracked, at 3k just about to wave of and pitch, another jumper tracked at about a 45` angle past me and pulled, as he past me I turn slightly tracked a bit longer and pitched. My opening height was about 2.3k, not overly low compared to a mal, but the lowest I had gone. Once on the ground he apologized for his tracking angle.

So yes I would track further and pull lower to avoid freefall/canopy collision, or in this case, a collision while both under canopy.

Lozza.

[Liemberg 0]

"Rules are for Fools yet a guidance to wise men"?

Trouble with that is who's to say who's the fool and who's the wise man...

The planet is massive, huge and directly aimed at you, the fellow jumper is comparatively small and who's to say you are judging it right, in the heat of the moment?

What you don't want to repeat is my mistake from years and years ago: I was receiving one-on-one RW-training and near opening altitude lost track of the other guy. I was CONVINCED he was behind or directly above me and smoked it down to below 2 grand. He was above me indeed, grabbing his toggles and wondering what the f*&k I was doing...

The other end of the spectrum as seen by me through binoculars from the ground: 3 way RW breaking up, one guy tracking away, 2 guys making 180 turn and staying in place for couple of seconds, instantaneously looking left, looking right, waving of and pulling. Both canopies making a 180 turn in the opening. Wrap. One guy cut away. Minor bruises & seriously deflated egos...

"Stupid is as stupid does"?

I have seen a pilotchute go by at less than two meters and a canopy at less than 10.

So, my rule would be "PULL!" but I'm willing to make an exception when piss poor planning brings piss poor performance...

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[Bartje 0]

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Trouble with that is who's to say who's the fool and who's the wise man...

You can not judge it for others, only for yourselfe.

And yes, I say also Pull.

A FreeFly Gypsy

[Plucky 0]

Quote:
"... but, yes, I would take it down to avoid a possible collision (and have done so in the past). I would then get with my group on the ground and discuss ..."

This assumes you haven't been grounded from that DZ for life, as I've seen happen to others in exactly that situation (ensured he was clear of others above him before pulling - too low).

Of course that's not what you should think about in the air, if you'll be grounded or not.

It would take a lot for me to intentionally pull low - i.e. an even more life-threatening danger.

- Citizen of the World -

[JohnMitchell 16]

To be grounded for life is one hell of a low pull. I don't know how low that was but I don't think I've been that low.

Used to be (dinosaur story coming on) we'd do RW to 3500 feet, then track and open around 2500 to 2000. It seems a lot of jumpers have moved that altitude up 1000 feet or more, even for bellyflying. There is a margin for safety, not huge and you go through it quickly, so you have to pay attention. In a situation like this person described, you have seek to minimize a high risk situation. If that mean tracking a few extra seconds or taking it down another 500 feet to avoid a potentially fatal collision, maybe that's the best move, next to staying out of that situation to begin with.

A couple of weeks ago, a person I was coaching hung out his canopy at 5000 feet, about 1000 higher than planned, the only wave off was a little salute from the left hand while the right hand was grabbing the handle. I was nose to nose with him at the time and he went head low and tried to slide under me. Do you think he could have waited a couple of extra seconds?

I respect your not wanting to pull low. That is an excellent attitude. Just sometimes in this sport you step outside the boundaries of safety into the land of just-trying-to-survive.

[funks 1]

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Dump at high! Sometimes it is better to do the opposite and get out high than to try to hum it low. .

Agree. On my second wingsuit jump I could see the tandems opening up off in the distance in what appeared to be my flightline. Knowing I was last out of the plane I didnt even hesitate to dump right then and there....perception in the sky can be a bitch, it is alway better to play it safe.

[Springbock 0]

Guys you know, fortunately the Blue Sky is huge, not big enough not to take Exit Separation and Tracking seriously, but big enough to take your chance on pulling well above decision altitude.

I once broke off from a 4 way RW Training Jump only to see I was followed by my fellow buddy. I saw him pulling when I planned to do so and made the decision to track further. I pulled fairly low at 2000ft and found myself beyond an twisted parachute at 1500ft, thanks.
That was with a fairly big and easy to handle Parachute, with a smaller and more agile one, this could have ended bad.
My conclusion is to pull.



Ups, is that a white canopy over me?

Take care up there!

[Reginald 0]

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Are there any circumstances that would make you choose to track further than planned to avoid collision with people above you, i.e. because of a messy break off on a jump where you are below others? Even if it might make you low so you need to pull reserve.

Or do you think pulling your main at the right altitude always is higher priority than making the risk of freefall/canopy collision smaller?

Good question. And the answer is, “It depends!” On a relatively small dive like a 10 or 20 way the answer is different than a 357 way. One of my instructors that was on the 357 way told me that she was prepared to track down to 1,000 feet and go directly to silver if necessary to get clear air. There are no circumstances in which I can think of that this makes sense on a 20 way, if anyone gets in this position on a “smaller” jump they need to think about bowling.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[tbrown 26]

My opening height was about 2.3k, not overly low compared to a mal, but the lowest I had gone.

[Lozza 0]

No I was pulling at about 2300, A rough guess for I was under canopy around 2000, 300ft +/- 50ft is the norm for my canopy to open.

(If you get to going on real bigways) Myself and others are of to Nagambie in Australia in March and I have been told by a mate that everyone normally pulls at around 2500 or lower. It's not a big issue for me, now that I'm a bit more experienced and can appreciate the 'big ground' look more.
Cheers tom.

Lozza.

[freakydiver 0]

Me personally - I track and pull low - but honestly I wouldn't suggest that to anyone else. Its my choice and puts ONLY me in harms way really which is for the better of all on the current load.

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[bob.dino 1]

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I have been told by a mate that everyone normally pulls at around 2500 or lower.

Your mate is mostly wrong. The APF Op Regs (rules) state that you must be under a fully-open parachute by 1800ft. With many modern canopies, dumping at 2.5kft would get you close to this limit more regularly than comfortable.

Most folk I know dump around 3kft. Some higher, and a few lower. I don't know anyone that routinely dumps below 2.5kft. That said, I don't sit on the DZ with a laser rangefinder trying to figure out people's opening altitudes .

[Lozza 0]

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Most folk I know dump around 3kft.

Good to know

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That said, I don't sit on the DZ with a laser rangefinder trying to figure out people's opening altitudes .

I know some people that seem to.
May see ya there?

Lozza.

[bob.dino 1]

If you come up to Picton, almost certainly. There's a chance that I'll be down in Nagambie for the Easter boogie, but I've not planned anything as yet...

Nagambie is a lovely DZ and Don & Louise are a great couple. All the folk I've met there are damn nice too.

[Remster 30]

Quote

Quote

I have been told by a mate that everyone normally pulls at around 2500 or lower.

Your mate is mostly wrong. The APF Op Regs (rules) state that you must be under a fully-open parachute by 1800ft. With many modern canopies, dumping at 2.5kft would get you close to this limit more regularly than comfortable.

Most folk I know dump around 3kft. Some higher, and a few lower. I don't know anyone that routinely dumps below 2.5kft. That said, I don't sit on the DZ with a laser rangefinder trying to figure out people's opening altitudes .

Lozza was I think refering to big ways.

For those, yes, most people have to pull at 2500. Espcially people on the outside. If you are unconfortable with that, change canopies or dont do big ways.

Remster

[bob.dino 1]

Ah right. I missed that! Just checked their calendar and they're running big ways over Easter. Probably nicking one of our Skyvans .

And yeah, I agree on the 2.5k for 30+ ways.

[happythoughts 0]

I routinely jump 12-20 ways. I usually track to 2200-2300 to dump and am in the saddle 1900-2000, usually 2000.

9 out of 10 people that I jump with open 2200-2500. Very few over 2500.

Just a note - people should immediately grab their rear risers and check for traffic. Learn to use your risers to steer out of possible collisions.

[bob.dino 1]

There's many canopies (such as my Spectre) that would leave me open illegally low if I dumped at 2200. I prefer to break off the jump a little higher and leave some more wiggle room.

But that's just me. You've been doing this a hell of a lot longer than I have...