D22369 0 #26 December 3, 2007 ok, I have about 1/3 rd of your time in the sport... but .... got my opinon of uspa (makes me special I know ) when i started skyiving one of the first months I was a skydiver the regional director for the northwest visited and jumped at our dz... to get a feel for the small dz he said.... he made the effort to get around.....made me feel like the uspa cared.... but I didnt pay much attention at the time...I was a nub....what did I know? - hell I thought that was what a regional director was supposed to do.... after that person got ousted... it became a dzo/regional director affair...nothing against her, but she was busy at her dz...no time to travel and to in my opinion "pay attention to the small dz" Hell, she granted a uspa dz status to a dz run by a 100 jump wonder that was one of my students simply cuz she wanted a uspa dz in the area.... well...he paid his money ... but still had no qualifications.. waivers...can you spell waivers !!! One of the dz's I really liked in oregon is (I believe) still having issues with the local management...uspa has done nothing..... its a small dz, with great people.... I had a blast there....but to the uspa probably not worth the money to enforce the usage... that aint right!!! (if I missed something and the jumpers are back on the dz in Eugene- someone let me know) Similarly what good does a seldom done ramp check of a DZ do us when the FAA inspector has limited, if any, knowledge of jump operations? I could sit for hours and tell you stories of how we've bamboozled these inspectors over the years. But consider for a moment if that FAA Inspector was someone the caliber of Chris (diverdriver) Schindler? *** well.... my attempts to forge my riggers signature would probably not work with my crappy handwriting..... I have time and time again see demo's done by people who do not have the skills or the mindset to do them safely....but are chosen simply because of who they sleep with/party with/jump with.... I see the uspa as a good idea...but....doesnt work.. they are too busy .... doing what the fuckever.... Get into a beef with a major DZO over anything at all, and don’t look to the USPA for help, they'll just side with the DZO and hang you out to dry. *** yup.... thats about the simplest explanation I can imagine... I dont know if the FAA would be better than the uspa...but I know the uspa doesnt work very well for anyone that isnt a major dropzone... well... the 3rd party insurance is ok I suppose, in 12 years I know of one person who has used it... I wasnt present when he took the mirror off of someones truck while landing...but the uspa dues paid off for him at that time... man..... I know my response is a bit disjointed, and I dont have a solution.... buttttttttt....... its my opinion that the uspa is basically lacking.... in everything other than a pretty magazine Roy They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,031 #27 December 3, 2007 >But what I really can't understand is why, after all these years, you are >still carrying their water . . . ? ?? Just because I don't hate them doesn't mean I'm "carrying their water." Some of the people at USPA are good people, some are OK. I don't know of anyone who is actively evil. They're like most other skydivers. If you (or anyone) wants to condemn USPA, that's fine with me. I am just suprised when people condemn them because they don't read minds, or don't use DZ.com to make decisions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grimmie 186 #28 December 3, 2007 Nick, dude, you were eating WAY too many donuts during EMT school and got yourself all sugared up!!!!Just my views on your views... 1.USPA BOD should be made up of skydivers that aren't DZO's. I think a lot of self serving goes on. I don't want to pay for DZ unjust legal troubles. 2.If the FAA took over they wouldn't hire the Bill Von's or Chris Schindlers, they would hire some 100 jump wonders for the job. 3.Why do AFF/Tandem/Pro,etc jumpers have to pay MORE for a yearly membership. They should pay less! They advertise and encourage the future! 4.If jumpmasters have to pay more for a USPA membership, they should have an insurance policy in case of injury. A skydiver "workman's comp" sort of plan. Get wrecked landing a tandem on a no wind day and no work for 4 or 5 months, they should get a cash payout to get them through. 5.Our sport is ruining itself. We can't keep killing jumpers in sensless ways like canopy collisions and hook turns. And every time a jump ship goes down we loose more credibility. 6.Economics govern our participation. Jumping is more global now than it ever has. Soon you will see many more jumpers arriving here in the states from thriving economies like China. The UK is doing well and it seems there are always a group of Brits at the DZ's I frequent. 7. Maybe we need to produce "Point Break II"! 8. Wind Tunnels may create more jumpers. 9. What happened to all involved in the James Martin incident was a travesty, IMHO. 10. USPA does a horrible job at promoting skydiving. The ESPN live from Montana two summers ago was a PR disaster. 11. Something needs to be done about "demos gone bad". I think that everyone with a PRO card should have to attend a yearly proficiency/refresher course. 12. Did we really need our own skydive museum? Couldn't we have put it in an existing aviation museum. Along with our HQ? 13. Would the FAA really slow down the DZ "old boys(and girls)" network? 14. Instead of throwing out the baby with the bathwater, maybe we should see what direction Ed Scott is going to take USPA in the future. I have spoken with him a few times and he seems to be much more knowledgable and helpful than...oh, never mind... 15. There should be a standard jump pilot training course and strict minimums for pilots. I would pay more for a full time career jump pilot. Let Zing and diverdriver put it together and teach it. 16. Nick, maybe you should start a coup. many DZ.commers and old timers might vote for you! All in favor of NickDG Friday for Left Coast Regional Director say AYE! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #29 December 3, 2007 Me run for office? I've got too many skeletons in my closet. I'd get creamed . . . NickD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #30 December 3, 2007 Just saw this up board. Probably the reason Jan was wearing the gag . . . Wonder how much of our dues went down this "settlement" rat hole? NickD STATEMENT CONCERNING ACTIVITIES OF 1-800-SKYRIDE AND RESOLUTION OF LITIGATION AGAINST USPA The USPA announces that on November 29th, 2007, it restored the Group Memberships of Atlanta Skydiving Center, Alabama Skydiving Center, and Adventure Skydiving Philadelphia, and the Individual Memberships of Cary V. Quattrocchi, and Benny W. Butler in full. All parties have reached an agreement to resolve the litigation pending between the parties in federal court and to ensure consumers can enjoy the sport of skydiving. The USPA has further discontinued the “consumer alert” previously posted on its website concerning complaints regarding 1-800-SKYRIDE. Among the USPA’s primary objectives is to guard the integrity of the sport of skydiving by demanding that USPA members uphold the basic ethical principles outlined in the USPA Constitution and other policies. However, within these parameters and in accordance with state and federal law, USPA members are free to conduct business as they choose. Consistent with its policies and procedures, the USPA does not—and will not—seek to regulate the business activities of its members. http://www.uspa.org/about/index.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zing 2 #31 December 3, 2007 "15. Let Zing and diverdriver put it together and teach it." All I've got to say about that is the same I've always told the jumpers when I'm flying. If I were me and saw me flying an airplane I was about to board ... I wouldn't get on that airplane!Zing Lurks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TonyJ 0 #32 December 3, 2007 Among the USPA’s primary objectives is to guard the integrity of the sport of skydiving by demanding that USPA members uphold the basic ethical principles outlined in the USPA Constitution and other policies. However, within these parameters and in accordance with state and federal law, USPA members are free to conduct business as they choose. Consistent with its policies and procedures, the USPA does not—and will not—seek to regulate the business activities of its members. i agree with this part, restoring the individual membership is ok, but notice it does not regulate the business activities of its members( didnt say group members) what a load of crap......tony Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #33 December 4, 2007 Not the FAA, give your money to the AOPA. Didn't they do more for jumpers when the airspace was closed after 9-11 than the USPA did? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
itllclear 1 #34 December 4, 2007 Quotewe should see what direction Ed Scott is going to take USPA It's actually up to the BOD to set direction. The Exec. Director is charged with carrying out the BOD's decisions. The big problem with the BOD is that there aren't enough non-DZO's with knowledge of BOD procedures who have the motivation and time to get well enough known to get elected and represent the interests of the "regular" members. Remember, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. So go out there, get signatures of 10% of the members in your region, and get on the Regional Director ballot. Then go out there and get known at all the DZ's to get your votes. If it can be done in the Western Region (I did it, and Scott Smith did it the term after I did) it should be doable in all the regions. Blue Skies! Harry"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there." "Your statement answered your question." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #35 December 4, 2007 Quote1.USPA BOD should be made up of skydivers that aren't DZO's. Why are so many BOD positions filled by DZOs? Because the amount of work required for the unpaid (I assume there is some remuneration but not much) positions really only makes sense if you have your livelihood on the line. If you want a steady stream of non-DZOs to run then you have to pay them. Small town aldermen don't get paid; the result is land developers and realtors dominate small town politics. Major cities pay enough that it is a full time job. If the membership of USPA want a professional board that is not in conflict of interest, they need to be prepared to spend an additional $15.00/year or so to pay for salaries. Quote2.If the FAA took over they wouldn't hire the Bill Von's or Chris Schindlers, they would hire some 100 jump wonders for the job. You are undoubtedly correct. The Transport Canada bureaucrat who governs skydiving, and who is the push behind their attempts to further regulate the sport, has never made a jump. I taught him a first jump course about twelve years ago, but he did not jump. If I recall correctly he said he had a bad back. Quote4.If jumpmasters have to pay more for a USPA membership, they should have an insurance policy in case of injury. A skydiver "workman's comp" sort of plan. Get wrecked landing a tandem on a no wind day and no work for 4 or 5 months, they should get a cash payout to get them through. Sounds good. Doing that as a skydiving group might be a tad pricey. The truth is anyone working for pay is supposed to be covered; the fact that the "independent contractor" thing lets professional skydivers be uninsured is, in my mind, a weakness in your legislation. But that is a bigger issue and I am not an American. In Canada we are all covered by Workman's Comp. Quote5.Our sport is ruining itself. We can't keep killing jumpers in sensless ways like canopy collisions and hook turns. And every time a jump ship goes down we loose more credibility. I disagree. Overall fatalities are down over time and student fatalities are way down. The way we kill ourselves is important only to us. The only thing that matters to the public is the number of times they read about it in the paper. If the FAA were involved and they decided 'something must be done.' I suspect canopy piloting as a discipline would be squashed like a bug. As far as plane crashes go. i suspect there will be fallout from the Washington crash. Even if the Farringtons had all their 'i's dotted and 't's crossed, those who routinely don't will have to re-think their policies. The truth is the FAA is already involved in regulating jump ships and pilots. They will not entertain advice from skydivers on how to regulate GA; the only change I could foresee would be to require a commercial operating certificate. The price of such a change would be the loss of several small DZs, and increased costs for everyone else that would translate into higher prices for all. I don't think five dollars per jump is too far fetched. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #36 December 4, 2007 QuoteQuote1.USPA BOD should be made up of skydivers that aren't DZO's. Why are so many BOD positions filled by DZOs? Because the amount of work required for the unpaid (I assume there is some remuneration but not much) positions really only makes sense if you have your livelihood on the line. If you want a steady stream of non-DZOs to run then you have to pay them. Small town aldermen don't get paid; the result is land developers and realtors dominate small town politics. Major cities pay enough that it is a full time job. If the membership of USPA want a professional board that is not in conflict of interest, they need to be prepared to spend an additional $15.00/year or so to pay for salaries. The amount of 'work' that BOD members put in can be as little as handing out a few awards and attending two 3-day meetings each year, plus answering a few phone calls or emails. At the other end there are people that put in more hours, but it does not even come close to even a PT job by any stretch of the imagination. BOD members get $120 per year for phone calls, travel to/from meetings, accommodations at meetings and a $35 per diem at meetings paid. Breakfast usually costs $10 at these places we have the mtgs at. The thought that 'average-joe-jumpers' cannot afford to be on the USPA Board is not true. Yeah - you won't make money, but there is not a BIG time requirement either. The 80-20 rule applies to the BOD. Eighty percent of the work is done by 20% of the members. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #37 December 4, 2007 QuoteBOD members get $120 per year for phone calls, travel to/from meetings, accommodations at meetings and a $35 per diem at meetings paid. Breakfast usually costs $10 at these places we have the mtgs at. Just to clarify... Is that $120 /year for phone calls, PLUS travel and accomodations are covered for meetings? I think that's what you were saying (and what I've read elsewhere), but I just want to confirm. Thought this might also be a good place to link to a thread I started last year about why more non-DZOs aren't on the board. Got some good responses there, too. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2334738"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
2fat2fly 0 #38 December 4, 2007 since I have met a FSDO chick that wanted to ground all 172's in 2000 or 2001 because she thought there was a problem with "The flappy thing on the back" I'd rather not have them involved. I am not the man. But the man knows my name...and he's worried Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #39 December 4, 2007 Yes, I know well about those problems . . . When I took my Rigger written at the San Diego GADO I had to spend a half hour convincing them that, "Yes, you do give that test!" Maybe you missed where I said the FAA should hire experienced jumpers to oversee their regulation of skydiving. NickD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #40 December 5, 2007 QuoteQuoteBOD members get $120 per year for phone calls, travel to/from meetings, accommodations at meetings and a $35 per diem at meetings paid. Breakfast usually costs $10 at these places we have the mtgs at. Just to clarify... Is that $120 /year for phone calls, PLUS travel and accomodations are covered for meetings? I think that's what you were saying (and what I've read elsewhere), but I just want to confirm. Yes that is right. Also I forgot to mention that RDs can get up to $500 reimbursement for travel in their region on 'official' USPA business. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Danger 0 #41 December 5, 2007 "In Canada we are all covered by Workman's Comp." FYI, you are only covered if your DZO pays into Workman's Comp. Thankfully mine does but most do not. If I remember correctly it costs well under $1.00 per Tandem jump. All Staff is covered where I jump. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 9 #42 December 5, 2007 [Sarcasm] Quote ...that RDs can get up to $500 reimbursement for travel in their region on 'official' USPA business... Geeze! With 500 bucks cold cash coming in every year, why is it we never see our RDs at DZs other than their home DZ... except during election time when they venture out with a fist full of ballots trying to get folks to vote for them? [/Sarcasm] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #43 December 5, 2007 Quote"In Canada we are all covered by Workman's Comp." FYI, you are only covered if your DZO pays into Workman's Comp. Thankfully mine does but most do not. If I remember correctly it costs well under $1.00 per Tandem jump. All Staff is covered where I jump. Actually that is not true. If the employer does not pay, then they are personally liable, just like in every other industry. When Rod Mack was hurt doing a coach jump in Victoria a few years ago the fact that the DZ was not paying their premiums was between the DZO and WCB; Rod is on a pension for life and the drop zone is closed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #44 December 5, 2007 Quote"In Canada we are all covered by Workman's Comp." FYI, you are only covered if your DZO pays into Workman's Comp. Thankfully mine does but most do not. If I remember correctly it costs well under $1.00 per Tandem jump. All Staff is covered where I jump. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just because you work for one of the more professional DZOs - in Canada - is no reason to rub everyone elses' noses in it. Be careful, you might hurt the fragile egos of some Americans. Tee! Hee! Just between you and me, the way many American DZOs handle workman's compensation claims borders on criminal! (quoting Michael Moore) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,070 #45 December 5, 2007 Quote [Sarcasm] Quote ...that RDs can get up to $500 reimbursement for travel in their region on 'official' USPA business... Geeze! With 500 bucks cold cash coming in every year, why is it we never see our RDs at DZs other than their home DZ... except during election time when they venture out with a fist full of ballots trying to get folks to vote for them? [/Sarcasm] It didn't say "allowance", it said "reimbursement". So **presumably** it means they have to demonstrate that they actually made an expenditure in the first place.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #46 December 5, 2007 Chris Needles was getting something like $100,000 (of your dues) per year as USPA Executive Director while RDs and ST&As get basically squat . . . NickD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #47 December 5, 2007 Yea but him and Glenn have done so much to earn our dues, without those two around skydiving would have been grounded long time ago by the FAA, just ask um. Good riddens!you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
htrammel 0 #48 December 5, 2007 Quote well intentioned but clueless inspectors. Or, perhaps the FAA is already reading this thread, and the other threads on this site, and is beginning to understand that many veterans of the industry are identifying a problem and seeking assistance through aggressive but informed oversight. CLUELESS!!???!!! Tom, I'm truly hurt. Most maybe, but not all of us. There's at least me and that other guy in Houston. Good points otherwise, though. (Disclaimer: not speaking for the FAA here) I can't imagine getting the funding for it. If we did, it would involve new certifications for DZs, instructors, etc...and certification is not at the top of the priority list. If a complaint comes in, however, we are mandated to investigate. I'll be glad to entertain any questions or comments, as long as you all know I'm speaking for me as a jumper and not as an FAA inspector. Clueless Tom? Clueless? You been talking to my wife? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #49 December 6, 2007 Or, perhaps the FAA is already reading this thread, Quote So...you're assuming they can READ?! Making quite a leap there Tom! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
htrammel 0 #50 December 7, 2007 Quote Or, perhaps the FAA is already reading this thread, Quote Geez Twardo. First Tom, now you. Can't a brother catch a break around here? I read just fine, though I'm better if there's lots of pictures So...you're assuming they can READ?! Making quite a leap there Tom! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
