USPA - ASC, Pratville, Cedartown Group Members once more

[skydived19006 4]

USPA running the Group Member program is a conflict in the first place, it's supposed to have been an individual skydiver member organization. That said, I don't see it changing, just too much inertia against setting up another origination, and in the end it is in the interest of the individual skydiver to have a place to jump.

For those here who would have rather USPA spent the money to fight. I'd like to take a little survey to see how many here donated $100 or more to the defense fund. It would take 1000 such donors to simply get started. Those same 1000 people would need to pony up $1000 each were it to go to one million to fight the good fight. I'll be the first to admit that I donated $0, call me an ass hole if you will.

Martin

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[jlmiracle 7]

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Is this slightly dramatic?

Possibly, but it's how I feel.

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It's disappointing that the USPA was pushed to settling, but it's better than being bankrupted, isn't it?

It's very disappointing and I don't know if it is going to be better than being bankrupted because I foresee alot more lawsuits in the USPA's future. How are they ever going to enforce anything? I also realize this has to do with the way USA is. Lawsuit happy and some really f-ed up laws.

How can the Boy Scouts keep out homosexuals, but the USPA can't keep this guys out? Is it because the GM program made the USPA appear to be a trade organization?

j

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[MidwestFreefall 0]

When the guys that don't want to belong to USPA show up at my DZ, I would just ask that they bring along their own certificate of 3rd party liability insurance good for $50,000.00. It's one of the most important things that you get with your USPA membership. Without the insurance, I wouldn't be able to skydive at my airport. It's one of the main reasons that I require USPA membership.

Randy

[DSE 5]

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***How can the Boy Scouts keep out homosexuals, but the USPA can't keep this guys out? Is it because the GM program made the USPA appear to be a trade organization?

j

Because the Boy Scouts receive tax dollars/public funding, the USPA is a private organization. Has nothing to do with the GM program.
I like Derek's concept; inspect and post the results. However, I somewhat doubt that will have any impact on how Skyride or their dropzones will be viewed either privately or publically.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

Do you have an idea what coverage like this would cost if it is bought by an individual?

[chriswelker 0]

Because the Boy Scouts receive tax dollars/public funding***

I believe the Boy Scouts are a PRIVATE MEMBERSHIP
org, just like the USPA; therefore, they receive no public funding. Do you really think that the Supreme Court of the USA would have allowed a publicly funded entity to exclude gays from membership?

When B&C sued the USPA they cited alot of restrictive free trade mumbo jumbo. The Group Membership program is a TRADE ORGANIZATION that excluded 3 members because they don't like the way they run their business'.

The Group Membership program is as worthless as tits on a boar hog that derives portions of it's funding from the Individuel Membership.

Chris

[DSE 5]

you're right. I was confusing public funding with public land access.

[USPAWatchdog 0]

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Without the insurance, I wouldn't be able to skydive at my airport.

There are a lot of dzs in this bad position, but you know why they are? Because the group memberhsip program existed in the first place! If there had never been a group membership program they no airport board or city would have ever thought to require it. if the group membership program GOES AWAY no one can require it because you cant require something that doesnt exist.

[NickDG 23]

>>Replace it with the DZ inspection program, THAT will serve USPA members by putting inspection data on USPA's web page.
USPA came pretty close to doing just that some years ago. Several experienced Instructors were signed up, including me, and the idea was we'd travel to out of state DZs where we weren't known and take and actually jump in their FJCs posing as students. At the same time we'd observe the DZs general operations for up-jumpers.

This program was in response to jumper concerns that fly-by-night operators were becoming prevalent and other's, some of them long term operations, were short changing their students with shoddy instruction. I did a practice run at one DZ (out of biz now) and was dismayed to find their AFF FJC was shorter than a typical 3-hour static line course and they were leaving out plenty of important stuff. I was so round the bend, and concerned for my "fellow" students, I thought of blowing my cover and trying to prevent the class from jumping. Then I took a gander at their student gear and it was a hodgepodge of old junk with Sentinel AADs.

But I went through with the jump, an AFF level one, and while gearing up it took three of them to calibrate my AAD. It was all I could do, biting my lip, to not show them how to do it. It was then I realized in the long run - being a spy for USPA - could be rather dangerous. But the class jumped successfully, and the DZ got away with it. Nobody had a two-out situation, not covered in class, nobody had an aircraft emergency, not covered in class, and nobody had a radio failure, also not covered in class among other things. I wondered how many other DZs where also just playing the odds?

USPA had no web presence in those days but this was to be an in-house program. The offending DZO would receive a letter from USPA saying they had been "inspected" , and listing the specific problems. The threat was clean up their acts or lose group membership. The whole idea was to make sure student training was at an even and high standard across the country.

At the 11th hour USPA backed out of the idea and I had a squabble with Bill Ottley about it. But is was apparent to me, and for the first time, that USPA worried more about DZOs than students or rank and file members. Some think it’s a case of the "old boy network" but Bill, in not so many words, made me understand something else. He was afraid if the DZOs and gear manufacturers revolted en-mass to this "spy program" the USPA could become irrelevant or replaced. After all, skydiving is "allowed and regulated" under Federal Aviation Regulations and it would carry on fine without the USPA.

"Well, okay," I said to him, rather naively, "then screw the DZOs and let's become the member driven organization we purport to be."

That idea flew like a tied down Cessna trying to taxi . . .

NickD BASE 194

[skydived19006 4]

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Do you have an idea what coverage like this would cost if it is bought by an individual?

I think it's something like $49.00 a year, even comes with a magazine.

Chris, maybe you could ask Ed or someone at USPA how much the insurance would be. Or, simply ask if they'd insure you for $49.00, and not mail the magazine?

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[MikeForsythe 0]

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When the guys that don't want to belong to USPA show up at my DZ, I would just ask that they bring along their own certificate of 3rd party liability insurance good for $50,000.00.

Wow, that's all? Well since I carry 1M general liability I guess I'm in.

Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is!

[Hooknswoop 19]

USPA needs to decide if they serve it's members or DZO's. It cannot serve both. They have proven that over and over again.

USPA will give any DZ that sends them a check, what the public perceives as a seal of approval, Group Membership. This is as bad as what Skyride does. Misleading the public.

Eliminate the GM program.

Establish a small, well trained, group of DZ inspectors. Every DZ gets an annual inspection. The results of this inspection are posted on USPA's website. DZO's may contact USPA and pay for an inspection after making improvements in order to get the better inspection results posted on the web page.

How many DZ's list:

* Gear Rentals
* Gear Sales
* Rigging Services
* Covered Packing Area
* Creeping Area
* Team Rooms
* Video Rooms
* Coaches
* Load Organizers
* Accuracy Tuffet
* Restaurant
* Bunkhouse
* RV Hookups
* Camping
* Showers
* Pool

And do not actually have all that?

How many list aircraft they don't actually have?

How can a first jump student decide if the gear at one DZ is better than another? How can they decide if one program is better than another? Isn't that what USPA should be for? Shouldn't USPA be looking out for their members' interests?

USPA should be looking after the Instructors it certifies interests (insurance, fair pay, fair treatment, etc) as well as ensuring those same Instructors meet minimum performance standards.

USPA should be educating their members about which DZ's maintain their aircraft, the qualifications of their pilots, what jumpers should look for and ask about at the DZ, etc.

As it stands, the USPA is being funded by member's dues and serving DZO's.

Derek

[billvon 2,991]

>Establish a small, well trained, group of DZ inspectors. Every DZ
>gets an annual inspection.

Good idea in theory, but:

a) any negative report will result in cries of "favoritism! politics! sour grapes! nepotism!" and the organization will then drop USPA in favor of WSA, FAI, Skyride or (insert new bogus organization here.)

b) dues will go up (again) to pay for the team's travel expenses. A conservative estimate would be, on average, $1500 a day for a 3 person inspection team that visits 175 drop zones a year. That's one every two days, and a $600,000 a year bill. That's another $17 a year at least. Members may question if that's worth having an inspector telling them "yep, your otter is still broken, and the team rooms still suck."

c) new jumpers don't get any official USPA publication, so it doesn't help them anyway. A web search is as likely to provide a Skyride site as a USPA site.

>USPA should be looking after the Instructors it certifies interests
> (insurance, fair pay, fair treatment, etc) as well as ensuring those same
>Instructors meet minimum performance standards.

While I agree on the performance standards and making insurance available, I'd rather leave it up to instructors to ensure they are being paid fairly. Like it or not, if all the AFF-I's at a DZ are willing to work for $1 a student jump - that's a fair price.

[DougH 270]

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USPA will give any DZ that sends them a check, what the public perceives as a seal of approval, Group Membership. This is as bad as what Skyride does. Misleading the public.

Eliminate the GM program.

So how do we get to this point?

Is there a large majority of members that would agree with this if they were presented with all the facts?

Personally I think many USPA members don't give a shit one way or the other. As long as they can send their 50 dollars in and jump at their local dz then they are happy.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[skyberdyber 0]

I spoke with Rhonda (Director of GM) at USPA just now. She has no knowledge of any of the Skyride/ASC DZ having membership re-instated.

Can we agree that the information provided on this forum in general should be looked at with major skepticism at all times until verified? It is amazing how everyone just accepts the info out here with no attempt to at validation. And people wonder why politicians get away with lying? If it's written or on TV it must be true.

I think the discussion about the merits of USPA should continue. I personally as a DZO think the GM membership program should be axed altogether. The only reason I have it is because the other guys do. I would still require membership for the insurance. I know a lot of other DZO's feel the same way I do. I get very little out of being a GM.

http://www.skydiveatlanta.com
http://www.musiccityskydiving.com

[Hooknswoop 19]

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ood idea in theory, but:

a) any negative report will result in cries of "favoritism! politics! sour grapes! nepotism!" and the organization will then drop USPA in favor of WSA, FAI, Skyride or (insert new bogus organization here.)

Let'em cry. If they refuse to be inspected that will be on the website. That is better than the current system where the public believes they are being inspected and USPA GM are the 'good' DZ's.

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) dues will go up (again) to pay for the team's travel expenses. A conservative estimate would be, on average, $1500 a day for a 3 person inspection team that visits 175 drop zones a year. That's one every two days, and a $600,000 a year bill. That's another $17 a year at least. Members may question if that's worth having an inspector telling them "yep, your otter is still broken, and the team rooms still suck."

By eliminating the GM, that will save USPA money that can be put into the inspection program. You only need one inspector for each inspection. I don't think members would complain about hearing DZ xyz hasn't been doing the 100-hour inspection on the otter and the students get round reserves, the pilot doesn't have a commercial rating, etc.

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c) new jumpers don't get any official USPA publication, so it doesn't help them anyway. A web search is as likely to provide a Skyride site as a USPA site.

A bit of work by USPA to make their webiste easier to find. It is better than the current system.

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While I agree on the performance standards and making insurance available, I'd rather leave it up to instructors to ensure they are being paid fairly. Like it or not, if all the AFF-I's at a DZ are willing to work for $1 a student jump - that's a fair price.

Fair enough, but USPA isn't doing any of that now.

Derek

[psychoswooper 2]

I personally as a DZO think the GM membership program should be axed altogether. The only reason I have it is because the other guys do. I would still require membership for the insurance. I know a lot of other DZO's feel the same way I do. I get very little out of being a GM.

[3331 137]

Jim West of Greene County Xenia Ohio has done just fine not being a Group Member.

I Jumped with the guys who invented Skydiving.

[johndh1 0]

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...I am pissed at USPA not so much because they let "THEM" back in as I am that they booted them in the 1st place without first considering the legal ramifications of doing so & in the process wasted members money...

I have thought about this too, but from a slightly different angle, and I am wondering what the USPA lawyers had to say at the time, and what changed now - but at the same time keep in mind that both items posted here concerning any re-admittance have not been shown as fact, either.

I also remember the following line from the press release:

"USPA has retained counsel and intends to vigorously defend against these claims, which are without merit."

What (or who) changed? Who steered this decision, as opposed to who initiated and implemented the removal?

I shouldn't even speculate until the final information is made public, but still I wonder.

Roll Tide Roll

[Krip 2]

I think the solution to this challenging situation is a lot simpler than you all are making it.

A lot of company's have broken up into smaller entities to reduce liability.

If Skyride was able to blackmail USPA with a lawsuit because of their deep pockets. Fine it's time for the DZO's to start their own trade group just like the PIA.

If The DZO's trade group is a organization with no assets and no insurance can they still be sued? Especially if the the GMDZo's have to sign a waiver not to sue the governing body to join.

If the DZO's want to inspect the GMDZ's for complience let them pay for it thru their own membership dues and fines.

Jumpers have to sign a waiver to jump at a DZ and jumpers don't sue jumpers. Why should it be any different for DZO's and their own trade group? DZO's READ the WAIVER you signed to join.

We have met the enemy and it is us. The internet has changed the way peope and scame artists do business. Times have changed and USPA has to change with it.

R.I.P.

[Hooknswoop 19]

USPA inspection program anyone. Since jumpers have no way to determine if the aircraft is being maintained correctly by the appropriate people, USPA could serve it's members by providing that information or DZ's that refuse inspections. Either way, members would have something to base their choices on.

"During an interview with a Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) inspector, the pilot stated that he did not possess any of the airplane's maintenance logbooks, and the airplane had not received an annual or 100-hour inspection since he purchased it in 2003. The pilot further stated that he did not hold an airframe or powerplant certificate; however, he performed all of the maintenance on his airplane. '

Derek

[yarak 0]

and what does a inspection program have to do with the awesome fact that the USPA has seen the error of its ways and welcomed our DZ's back into their loving arms?

I'll huff and I'll puff and I'll burn your fucking packing tent down.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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our DZ's

Do you own a DZ?

Derek

[billvon 2,991]

> Fine it's time for the DZO's to start their own trade group just like the PIA.

They have one. Amy and I were at a DZO organization conference in Vegas about six years back.