Hmmmmm - questioning Skydiving article not doing familiarisation jump on unusual gear

[chuckakers 425]

Just read in the November Skydiving Mag an article by Nancy LaRiviere about a group of jumpers at Deland that rigged up some gutter gear and did an 8-way.

As all but the newbies know, this gear operates much differently from today's gear. Every handle is in a different location, the main canopy release is a clumsy, 2-handed operation, and many of the reserves are hand deployed (yes, youngsters, hand deployed).

Add to that the fact that the rig itself fits and feels nothing like modern gear, has a main canopy that opens, flies, lands, an even malfunctions differently, and flies in freefall nothing at all like our snug little lunchboxes.

Nowhere in the article does it mention any of the jumpers making solo jumps on these rigs before attempting RW. Yes, some of the jumpers that were on the load are older than dirt and probably have plenty of jumps on conventional stuff, but others must not have, since the article mentions that the gear was built before some on the load were born.

The article also doesn't mention anyone receiving training, reviewing, or practicing emergency procedures. I have to assume (which in itself, may be a mistake) that the folks who needed training got some.

So what's my point?

I question doing an 8-way (or any RW, for that matter) on the first jump on such different gear. I have retired from instructing, otherwise the word "question" would be "condemn". The list of dead skydivers who got that way while jumping unfamiliar gear is long and very well documented, and some were highly experienced.

I also would have liked to have seen something in the story about training on the gear. There are plenty of new jumpers that read Skydiving, and with no mention of training, it would very easy for them to think none was done (which again, I assume was conducted, at least for the first-timers).

Finally, I saw nothing in the story about test jumps being conducted on the gear before being "fun jumped". Since the gear had to be "prepared" and some had to be "repaired" (quotes from the author), I think a test jump by someone familiar with and trained on the rigs would have been a better choice.

I learned and have taught that any significant change in gear should be followed by a solo familiarization jump. I still do that. Am I out of touch on this one?


Chuck

Edit - added clarification to title. Please use more descriptive titles to give readers an idea what your post is about. Thanks. ~ Craig

[diablopilot 2]

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I learned and have taught that any significant change in gear should be followed by a solo familiarization jump. I still do that. Am I out of touch on this one?

Nope, it's still a good idea, but don't let all those people who demo some new hot shit canopy while doing bigways at a boogie hear that.

Perish the thought that they might do a hop and pop.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

I think you are over reacting slightly but I too think that training and EPs should have been mentioned in the article. Along with a don't try this at home statement. I only skimmed over it.

As far as test jumps go, Would you want to jump that shit more then once?

[darkwing 5]

I bet some of those people had lots of jumps on that very same gear already. I know I do.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[chuckakers 425]

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I bet some of those people had lots of jumps on that very same gear already. I know I do.

maybe some reading glasses for you...

>>Yes, some of the jumpers that were on the load are older than dirt and probably have plenty of jumps on conventional stuff, but others must not have, since the article mentions that the gear was built before some on the load were born.<<

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

All that stuff is why whenever someone would bust out some ancient round canopy and ask if I wanted to jump it I would reply "tell ya what... find a way to put that thing in a piggyback rig with 3-rings, and I'll be happy to jump it".

Eventually, a local rigger managed to find an olive drab Strong Hawk big enough to fit a PC Mark III. The emergency handles were in the modern locations, it had 3-rings, and he even added a BOC pocket for the pilot chute. It was a pretty cool experience... very quiet! And yes... I did a solo.

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[chuckakers 425]

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As far as test jumps go, Would you want to jump that shit more then once?

If gear is too shitty to jump more than once, it's too shitty to jump at all - but point taken.

C

[CSpenceFLY 1]

Being shitty and airworthy are two different things. I thought about jumping a round once but decided against it. Just think in 20 years people will be bringing their Sabre 1s out of the closet and they'll be living on the edge. Well I guess that is iving on the edge a little.

[councilman24 37]

If your profile is right you probably just missed belly mount reserves and round equipment.

As to your comments. My expectation of the people on the jump is that they did train on the old emergency procedures quite a bit. As to hop and pops. It might have been a good idea. But this starts getting into the grey area between a stunt and a skydive. For those of us who spent years jumping this stuff it's not a big deal. And a hop and pop, while okay for gear familization wouldn't have helped with the exagerated freefall manuvers needed to overcome the gear and build an 8 way. Should the training and preparation have been noted in the article? Sure. But for this group a hop and pop on the gear would have exposed them to additional risk (gear issues, landing hard, etc.) for very little additional benefit. And these jumpers weren't uncurrent even if the gear hadn't made a jump in many years. At some point building an 8 way round before break off IS a hop and pop. Turning 12 points would have been a bigger deal. They were able to concentrate on straight in diving and flying, level control, had time to deal with the gear issues in flight and deployment and remember what the hell this stuff was like. Also, they probably didn't have to deal with diving a couple 1000' out of a small door beech 18 or DC 3.


I hadn't jumped a round in about 19 years. But a took a Phantom 28' round, put it on three ring risers, put it in my everyday rig and jumped it. I landed in the pea gravel pit at our DZ from 1/2 mile out and 5000' exit. I'm not bragging (okay I am) but pointing out that some of these skills you don't lose. And because of a very tight DZ I didn't choose to combine RW or old gear with the task of round canopy control. I have my first rig, a PC in a Mini Pig, and wouldn't hesitate to jump it if I thought I'd survive the landing at my current weight. I used to jump that right hand RC rig with R3 cutaways, a 'normal' right hand leg strap throw out, and a completely reversed left hand thow out rig with reversed RC and cutaway handles interchangably during the day jumpmastering. I got used to jumping the rig I was wearing and not relying on 'automatic' muscle memory.


I'd say lighten up a little and add a disclaimer "don't do this at home".

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[fastphil 0]

Hmmmmm, I'm with you; I couldn't wait to get off that crap when I started jumping...

[kschilk 0]

I jumped some vintage round gear once. Everyone else was wearing these tank-crew frap-like things but I decided to stick with my trusty FD helmet. Nobody said anything about it...they didn't speak English and there was no translator there, at the moment.

I soon learned that the risers on this rig, were much closer together than anything I'd jumped before. The risers smacked against the back of my helmet and pinned my chin to my chest....it sucked largely! I clawed a lot of air, trying to find the handles. I couldn't see any of the others, check my canopy.....nuthin'!

"T'was ever thus."

[councilman24 37]

Not sure what you were jumping. But as I said before motorcyle helmets were the norm. Bell if you were hot shit. I get a kick out of BH essentially making a motorcyle helmet style now. Just go to walmart and buy one!

Dont think your FD should have gotten in the way. Unless the chest strap was under the chin in front. Obviously you need to try again to find out!

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[kschilk 0]

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Not sure what you were jumping. But as I said before motorcyle helmets were the norm. Bell if you were hot shit. I get a kick out of BH essentially making a motorcyle helmet style now. Just go to walmart and buy one!

Dont think your FD should have gotten in the way. Unless the chest strap was under the chin in front. Obviously you need to try again to find out!

It was vintage Russian military gear. I was told it was WWl vintage but honestly, I'm guessing WWll. Like I said, the translation was ifffy. It wsa a 100 meter, statis-line jump from an AN-2. The canopy was like canvas...the main canopy was like 40 kgs. It was like jumping a 10-man tent. Once was quite enough, thank you.

I knew the landing would be hard but I was more afraid of being crushed by the canopy!

*If you look at the belly reserve, you can see the handle of a 10-inch steak knife...that was my cutaway. Sorry for the poor quality of the pic. It's a capture from a video that was shot in PAL and I had to have converted to NTSC.

"T'was ever thus."

[Beatnik 2]

I don't know if I really agree with the don't try this at home disclaimer. Maybe something like with proper training and it can be done. I think it should be mentioned what training they have on it.

I jump vintage gear all the time and I mean all the time. There was a time this year where I was much more current under vintage gear then my Safire 2. As far as I know I did more vintage gear jumps this year than anyone else in Canada did (little over 100). I am a perfect example that just because the gear was around before I were born doesn't mean that they don't have training on. However, that said the article did sound like this wasn't a very frequent thing.

WRT the repaired part, I think it really depends on what kind of repair. If it was just a patch or something small like that, I really don't think a test jump is necessary, that is (if the jumper has jumped the canopy before). I am ending up doing a lot of repairs and restoration on vintage, so much in fact that it is almost the only rigging I do anymore. Something I consider small I don't see a reason to do a solo jump on it to see if it works. Some of the bigger repairs and/or restorations, I strap on a tertiary, more for psychological reasons than anything. Those jumps are isolated to minimize distractions.

I personally enjoyed the article and think that it was great to get some of the history of the sport out there. I didn't like that it sounded like this guy has some gear that comes out once in a while and it sounded like the currency factor was out the window with this gear.

[councilman24 37]

The don't try this at home was my idea. A was intended for those who don't have a clue what the gear is like. They shouldn't be doing an 8 way, or anything else for that matter. I'm all for jumping older gear as long as the risks are acceptable or aknowledged. I have a friend with a conventional rig with a pop top chest mount. No problem there except it as a 24' flat with modifications cut in it. No diaper or anything else to stage the deployment. These reserves had a 17% malfunction rate without the modifications. I figure 25% plus with. I really would rather the guy didn't jump this reserve. I rather see him put a meshed modication reserve with at least a partial stowage diaper in it.

Will I seal it? Probably but I'm trying to talk him out of it.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[Beatnik 2]

I was trying to answer a lot in one post. Bad form on my part. Sorry about that.

I completely agree with knowing the risks before hand. I am not for some jumper picking up a rig putting it on and thinking they can handle it and would never tell anyone to do something like. Do as I say and not as I do, unfortunately, comes to mind. When I am done restoring or jumping a canopy I end up doing that but I take precautions when testing a canopy I haven't jumped before. This article as much as I like it just made it seem like this guy isn't that current under the gear. I love that he is a fellow vintage gear collector and he quite possibly is current under these parachutes, but the more I read it the more to me it sounds like this doesn't happen often. Especially the part about making it an annual event. If these parachutes are being jumped it is important to try and stay current under them. Just because they can't fly 90 mph like todays parachutes doesn't mean that you can ignore what is going on. I am much more focus when landing some of the vintage parachutes than my modern main.

I am guilty of using the same reserve, in fact I have three of them that I use. However, the mods where done and the gear was together when I got them, I really didn't see a need to not use them. They aren't my first choice when it comes to my reserves and they usually just is there. I have other ones I would rather use. There is no thrill and nothing fun in a terminal reserve opening with a canopy that has nothing to stage the opening. However, the one time I do use them is when I jump my T10. The chances of have to use it with a T10 static lined is very slim.

[skypuppy 1]

I'd suggest writing a letter to the editor of skydiving magazine. That way she could have Nancy Lariviere write a response about the training and all the people that initially read the article have a chance to read the response.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[Andy9o8 2]

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There is no thrill and nothing fun in a terminal reserve opening with a canopy that has nothing to stage the opening.

Not quite true. I've done it. It was not fun. It was definitely thrilling.

[JohnRich 4]

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They shouldn't be doing an 8 way, or anything else for that matter. I'm all for jumping older gear as long as the risks are acceptable or aknowledged.

Who are you to decide what risks are acceptable for them?

Don't they have the right to decide that for themselves? These were all experienced jumpers, not students, quite capable of making that choice intelligently for themselves.

There were plenty of 8-way formations done with jumpers wearing that kind of gear, and done safely. With your 26-years of experience, you should know that. Just because the gear is old, doesn't mean it is unsafe. Just because the gear is old, doesn't mean that the jumpers are taking unacceptable risks.

[councilman24 37]

You need to read the whole thread and not take a quote out of context!
The line you quoted wasn't referring to Nancy et.al. It was referring to others who might NOT have the experience with the older gear.

I defended the group in the article as not needing a hop n pop first. That an eight way WAS a familiarization dive for them.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE