What can we do about Skyride?

[popsjumper 2]

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...So you condone deceptive advertizing, theft, fraud and copyright infringement?

Oh c'mon, John...you're above this type of lame "put words in his mouth" baiting.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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...I could go on, but it's not worth the time, if you want more of the same just read back through this thread. Also get back to me when you have a few jumps and you've been around for 10 years.

Geez...this is an attitude that makes me want to come to avoid your DZ. Thanks for the heads-up.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[teason 0]

Skyride flows the "Demand" through their bogus sites. That skims profit out of DZs hands and into the hands of Skyride.

They do not increase participation through advertising, the skim from internet search that are already happening and they do it by copying websites and misrepresenting them as established DZs in the students area.

That is what skyride does, profits by misrepresenting themselves to Tandem students.

The effect of Skyride is that

1.) It has left Tandem students with a bad taste in their mouths. Spending more on a tandem than they had to, being lied to and having them commute unreasonable distances is not good for Skydiving's image. In the long run it will have an adverse effect on participation.

2.) By cutting into DZ profits, the cost of jump tickets has to increase. That, my freind, affects you (which is important to you).
It also takes away from advertising dollars the DZ can spend getting more participation at the DZ.
It takes money away from special events like hot tub parties on the DZ or gambling on bringing in a larger plane for a boogie (if the DZO can't risk the money, he/she won't do it) And we all like to jump from big planes.
With DZOs making less, they can't afford to pay instructors a decent wage. (which will affect you if you become an instructor)

3.) By directing local Tandem students to other DZs, it reduces jump volume so 182 DZs can't justify trading up to a 206 or turbine. Once again, we all like to jump from big planes. Lower volume also increase the aircraft's "cost per hour" so expect higher rates. (you probably won't care about that one being in Florida where there are lots of big planes but other jumpers suffer.)

You're fooling yourself if you think this is a DZ owner issue. Sooner or later it has a trickle down effect and will sting you to.

Skyride:
1.) dupes students
2.) steals copyrighted pictures for video folk and Webmasters
3.) skims work for local DZs and instructors
4.) skims profit from small business
5.) hampers DZ growth
6.) increases jump costs at smaller DZs
7.) puts the Skydiving community in a negative light

Even if you don't care about students, vidiots, webmasters, instructors, small business owners, and the size of DZs you don't jump at, they may still affect your wallet and they make us all look bad.

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[iluvtofly 0]

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One thing that is often overlooked is that if it weren't for DZOs cooperating with Skyride it wouldn't be an issue at all. Those DZs who accept the Skyride certificates are no better than Ben and Cary. It would be similar to hanging out in titty bars, and complain about how immoral the dancers are for doing what they're doing. Their no better/worse than the guys stuffing dollars down their G-strings.





I don't know if I would completely agree with that. I know that my DZO accepts skyride gift certificates but does not like them at all. He looks at it from the perspective of taking the person under his wing, informing them of how they've been scammed and introducing them to the REAL world of skydiving. He doesn't like to take their certificates because he looses money every time he does. He has heard countless stories of how people are turned away from the sport after their encounter with skyride. So he makes a point of letting these people know that this is not how the sport actually works. If it is someone who was sent several states away, after they jump (because the certificates can only be redeemed at a specific DZ) he'll direct them to a DZ in their area so that they can continue on with the sport.

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[jraf 0]

First of all please let me start with this firm statement:

I am not a professional skydiver and I never want to be one. It is my pastime and my fun.

You say that Skyride skims the profits of DZOs. Well why is it so? Do you have to accept their certificates? Do you have a contract with them? If you don’t then you don’t need to honor these certificates. That’s it, no need to share profits with them.

If they take business away from you, that is called competition. No need to love your competition, but it’s your business.

If they take business away from you through false advertising and through unauthorized use of someone’s images – that is an unfair trade practice and by all means sue, sue, sue! Don’t whine about it, do something. (no if you have in fact sued, then I accept the need to whine)

I never saw the prices of jump tickets go down. Also when there is less tandem business, DZOs start appreciating fun jumpers a little more. If Skyride directs business from one DZ to another, then that once again is called competition.

The bottom line is that it truly should be a DZO business to do something about Skyride. As is it appears to me that some DZOs are going along with it (honoring the certificates) and some are not. Once again that is competition. Some DZs will grow, some will fail. If you are trying to tell me that because of Skyride you as the DZO are not providing me with a quality service, then I call that a lame excuse

As for the stories of DZOs accepting Skyride certificates and loosing money on that just to take someone under their wings and introduce them to the sport… well you will allow me to put that among other funny anecdotes.

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[teason 0]

Well here we see the problem with the size of the thread. You are basing your view point on things that have been addressed in the last 2000 or so posts and it is impossible to take a few days and read them all.

I will try to make it concise and not assume that you have any idea of what skyride does.

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You say that Skyride skims the profits of DZOs. Well why is it so? Do you have to accept their certificates? Do you have a contract with them? If you don’t then you don’t need to honor these certificates. That’s it, no need to share profits with them.

Most DZs do not accept Skyride tickets. That means if someone 10 min. away buy a Skyride ticket, we just lost a sale. It's not as simple as you believe.
When Skyride stole our website and cloned it, people even thought they were booking with us as the sites were identical, even had me as their Chief instructor. When the got the ticket, they were then directed to other DZs.

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If they take business away from you, that is called competition. No need to love your competition, but it’s your business.

If they take business away from you through false advertising and through unauthorized use of someone’s images – that is an unfair trade practice and by all means sue, sue, sue! Don’t whine about it, do something. (no if you have in fact sued, then I accept the need to whine)

Skyride skims the tandem market by loading the internet up with bogus skydiving website. as of 2 years ago there were some 900+ skyride sites. You can't do a search for skydiving without hitting a fake skydiving site. They used to pretend they were us.
I'd call that unfair.

The problem with a law suit is this; we would have to fly from canada to Alanta to launch the suit. The suit would be against the corporation as it gives the owners limited liability. The Corp that is responsible has little to no assets and therefore there is no money to get out of them. The end result is that we would spend thousands and not only not recieve a cent but it would take years and years before the rebound in profits payed for the expense of the law suit. And that doesn't factor personal time and stress. It's a situation where your only options are to lose or lose.

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I never saw the prices of jump tickets go down. Also when there is less tandem business, DZOs start appreciating fun jumpers a little more. If Skyride directs business from one DZ to another, then that once again is called competition.

Jump tickets for fun jumpers rarely go down because they are sold at cost. At my DZ I make more of a fun jumper if he buys a coke.
That's like saying if no one buys food at a resturant, they appreciate the loiterers more.

*****This is important*****
DZs pay for staff, maintenance, rent and so on through student sales. If there are no student sale and only upjumpers, they will have to pay rent and so on through upjumpers. They cannot do it if you are paying cost for your slot!

The idea that Skyride is "Competition" would be valid if there was a level playing field.

Skyride skewed the playing field by flooding the internet with misleading sites, Stealing websites of real DZs in the area and just changing the phone number, Stealing phone numbers of DZs while the DZ was dealing with a tradegy, not being forthright and honest with students and so on.

DZO do need to band together. We do need to refuse Skyride on mass but if most DZs refuse, it will benifit the few that accept and that money is hard to give up.

There is enough people in skydiving allowing this to happen. All we can do is make people aware of what is going on then maybe the playing field can be level again.

As it is, to create true competition again, the DZOs would have to be as deceptive as Skyride and I, for one don't want to sink there.

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If you are trying to tell me that because of Skyride you as the DZO are not providing me with a quality service, then I call that a lame excuse

At my DZ, I try to do a hot tub party and pig roast every couple of months. When we have a slow month, I can't afford it. I have also been known to buy beer and pizza when we have busy days, a kind of thank you for everyone. I don't think this rare on small DZs.

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As for the stories of DZOs accepting Skyride certificates and loosing money on that just to take someone under their wings and introduce them to the sport… well you will allow me to put that among other funny anecdotes.

Shit, I've never heard of such a thing. Has anyone everclaimed that? Sounds rediculous. Stories? I've been involved in this Skyride thing for a while and I've never heard any of that. Skyride pisses people off way to much for that to ever happen.

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[jraf 0]

We agree as to some principles. We disagree on some.

If a DZ after wages, fuel and depreciation makes $4 on a $23 jump ticket I don't call that a sale at cost, I call it a healthy 17.4% margin. Given that you will have a tandem on the same jump, probably a vidiot in addition, then maybe an AFF student (say we are talking of a caravan or kingair or with stretch a porter) you are winding up with a decent margin mix. I am not saying that DZOs are millionaires, but they usually are not scraping dimes at month’s end.

The inability of DZOs to work something out with Skyride is interesting. You can sue a US corporation from Canada. Rules have changed and you can sue corporate officers too. You don’t need to make it from Atlanta.

Stealing and cloning a website as it involves interstate commerce is a federal crime in the United States. Corporate officers are directly responsible for any criminal activity their corporation may be involved in. Don’t take my word, talk to a lawyer. Don’t whine, do something about it.

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[PhreeZone 20]

There are already lawsuits in action. They have all been talked about in this thread. Please take the time to actuallly read it. PACER numbers, case numbers, copies of the filings, etc are all here if you look at the thread. Its been 18 months or so since the suit was filed if I remember right and the judge is yet to rule on the case. Skyride is also sueing the USPA so your membership dollars are in action defending the USPA against that lawsuit.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[teason 0]

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If a DZ after wages, fuel and depreciation makes $4 on a $23 jump ticket I don't call that a sale at cost, I call it a healthy 17.4% margin. Given that you will have a tandem on the same jump, probably a vidiot in addition, then maybe an AFF student (say we are talking of a caravan or kingair or with stretch a porter) you are winding up with a decent margin mix. I am not saying that DZOs are millionaires, but they usually are not scraping dimes at month’s end.

My god! Are you serious? Do you actually think all DZs have that kind of air power.

I honestly am flabbergasted by your comment!

It looks like I need to explain a small DZ to you.

A cessna 182 is a small single Origionally designed in the mid 50s, it was designed as a four seat commuter. It has a slightly bigger engine than a 172.

The standard 182 has an o-470 engine that generates less than 280 horsepower. Most 182 jump ships only go to about 9000-10000 feet.

The 182 holds a max of 4 jumpers and takes 25-40 min to get to altitude. freefall is a meger 40 sec.

The C182 can cost about $120-$150CDN per hour to run wet depending on how many hours it flys per year and how much wear and tear the aircraft recieves. We are at the high side of that as we jump on weekends 6 months of the year. This has nothing to do with any other cost outside the aircraft operation.

Our situation is even worse as we rent the aircraft from a third party and therefore our cost is higher.

Even if we did make $4 per slot (we actually lose $2)
that money would have to go toward fixed costs like building, gear maintenance (try maintaining 19 AADs), wages, advertising, phones and the list goes on.

I'm guessing you've only ever jumped at big DZs and you have no understanding of how a small DZ works.
Well, let me put it this way, if all we did was upjumpers and they 1000 loads and we made $4 slot, we would lose about $150,000 per season.

Upjumpers do alot of great things for a DZ and are absolutely critical for its success.
They are the instructors
They lower the operating cost per load (not at my dz but at others)
They create an atmosphere that brings students back

They are, in short, the soul of the DZ.

What there are not is directly profitable. It is comical when I hear upjumpers talking about the importance of their money.
That's bullshit.

Now at larger DZs, yeah. I'll agree they can contribute more but at small DZs, I would make more money if they didn't jump(not that I want that, I run the loads at a loss so they dojump and I'd lose more if they weren't there.)

It take a $2 hit on upjumpers because they are important just for being there, making the DZ happen and showing students what they can become.

By the way, contacted a lawyer (that's where I got the info) did stuff about it (been behind the scenes, contributed evidence in a lawsuit etc.) Whining? You want to know what the deal is, I tell you and you call me a whiner?

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[jlmiracle 7]

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know that my DZO accepts skyride gift certificates

Don't they (Ben and Cary) OWN the dz that you jump at?

j

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[iluvtofly 0]

No, they don't.

[jraf 0]

All I can say is that you run an interesting business model. Obviously you have your reasons to do it that way. It is your business, so it is not my place to give you advice on how to run it. (Unless you wan't to...after all that is my livelyhood)

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[skydived19006 4]

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I know that my DZO accepts skyride gift certificates but does not like them at all. He looks at it from the perspective of taking the person under his wing, informing them of how they've been scammed and introducing them to the REAL world of skydiving. He doesn't like to take their certificates because he looses money every time he does. He has heard countless stories of how people are turned away from the sport after their encounter with skyride. So he makes a point of letting these people know that this is not how the sport actually works. If it is someone who was sent several states away, after they jump (because the certificates can only be redeemed at a specific DZ) he'll direct them to a DZ in their area so that they can continue on with the sport.

And I frequent titty bars in and attempt to counsel the young ladies in the depravity of their chosen profession. Altruism can be such a bitch at times!

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[teason 0]

I don't think it's quite so strange, old business models of the past put shareholders and profits above all else. New models understand the concept of stakeholders.

Look at the behavioural approach of management. The Behavioural approach stresses the importance of people in attaining organizational goals. The Human realtions movement put forth by such individuals as Mary parker Follet and Chester Barnard advocates that management puts the gratification of the workers as a primary concern.

Studies into human interaction has also demonstrated the imporance of social relations. The Hawthorne studies, for example, show that social factors are at least as important as environmental ones.
The Hawthorne effect illustrates the tendency for workers (in groups) to increase productivity when managemnet pays attention. Anyone say beer and pizza? (just one example)

Dropzones are not a place for DZOs to focus on classical approaches. Scientific mangagement works better for goods, not services and bureaucracy is already imposed by national skydiving bodies. Adminisrative approaches are wasted on such small organizations.

While I would agree that monetary incentives do nothing for moral, what it does do is create an increase jump activity which inturn enhances the DZ's social componant. Upjumpers are more price sensitive than students.

Upjumpers are stakeholders that should be satisfied and not taken for granted or advantage of.
The cost of subsidizing upjumper activity is money that is spent securing staff and creating DZ feel.

The idea of a business' main responsibility is to make profit died out decades ago. Canada is a more social minded country making a DZs social responsibility toward the Skydiving community much more important. Trying to increase (or realize) profits off of upjumpers would not be good for the DZs image. In a small market, you need to attract the best and brightest. In manitoba, for example, there are only 4 tandem masters for 2 DZs(and who wants to work for some money grubbing DZO?)

Now, if you are in biz or some kind of consulant, you will undoubtedly have a different perspective. My father who is an ISO 9000 consultant gives me advice from a different perspective than mine which is good, but not always a perfect fit.

As it is my business, I have to constantly expose my self to different perspectives to find the one that works the best. I believe (so far) that the behavioural approach is the most appropriate

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[skydived19006 4]

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All I can say is that you run an interesting business model. Obviously you have your reasons to do it that way. It is your business, so it is not my place to give you advice on how to run it. (Unless you wan't to...after all that is my livelyhood)

Ok, so this is a joke, but as with jokes in general the levity is in the truth of it.


A man owned a small dropzone in Kansas.

The Kansas Wage & Hour Dept. claimed he was not paying proper wages to his help and sent an agent out to interview him.

"I need a list of your employees and how much you pay them," demanded the agent.

"Well," replied the DZO, "There's my Chief Tandem Instructor who's been with me for 5 years. I pay him $500 a weekend plus.

The Solo Instructor has been here for 8 years, and I pay him $500 per weekend plus.

Then there's the half-wit who works about 18 hours every day. He cleans the facility, empties the trash, flies the airplane, packs parachutes, jumpmasters students, and picks up after everyone. He makes about $10 per week, pays his own room and board and I buy him a bottle of bourbon every Saturday night."

"That's the guy I want to talk to, the half-wit," says the agent.


"That would be me," replied the DZO

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[klingeme 1]

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There have been plenty of threads on here about Skyride and their unethical and even illegal tactics. The Capital Commentary stopped short of using their name this month.

Is there anything we, as a community, can do to shut this down before they cause lasting damage to the industry? Before the find a way to steal student business from the real dropzones and cause them to eventually shut down?

The only idea I have ever heard someone willing to take was to google bomb them using blogs. I've heard of photographers and instructors saying they can't afford to sue them, maybe we can put together a fund to help with the costs of a lawyer?

Any ideas or anyone willing to do this?

I just wonder if when ChasingBlueSky posted a thread entitled "What can we do about SkyRide" on October 22nd 2004, he ever knew that 2 years and 2 months later, after 1,939 posts and 124,670 views, we would still be saying the same things and going back and forth with the same heated argument as when he posted his initial post.


Maybe we should just try "google bomb them using blogs" as suggested by the original poster.

Just trying to give some perspective to this thread.

Mark Klingelhoefer

[IanHarrop 42]

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Maybe we should just try "google bomb them using blogs" as suggested by the original poster.

Because of the lawsuits and the fact that there has been indications that lawyers are watching this thread, it is important that we take the high road and avoid giving the bad guys ammunition during the lawsuit.

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[lawrocket 3]

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If they take business away from you, that is called competition. No need to love your competition, but it’s your business.

Wow! Competition! Perhaps I should open up a chain of fast food restaurants and call it "McDonalds." After all, it's just competition.

Come on, hans. You know the difference between "competition" and "infringement." Competition and free markets only work when there is honesty.

By the way, how's the wee bairn?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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I just wonder if when ChasingBlueSky posted a thread entitled "What can we do about SkyRide" on October 22nd 2004, he ever knew that 2 years and 2 months later, after 1,939 posts and 124,670 views, we would still be saying the same things and going back and forth with the same heated argument as when he posted his initial post.


Maybe we should just try "google bomb them using blogs" as suggested by the original poster.

Just trying to give some perspective to this thread.

Mark Klingelhoefer

I was a very active skydiver when I posted this and I was tired of the complaints and various unorganized threads behind this. My attempt was to try to bring some focus to the topic.....I had no idea the thread would grow to this size.

I believe that due to the hard work of alot of people that real information about this company has surfaced. There are a few places you can go to get educated about it now.

There has also been alot of quiet work happening out of the public eye by some key people on the legal side of this as well.

All I did was make a post, but the community made their own choice of what needed to be done. When I finally come back to the sport hopefully this will be resolved by then.

As far as what you can do: keep the high road, don't google bomb, don't do anything illegal or unethical to this company or anyone associated with it. You will end up causing more damage in the long run to all the hard work that people have put into the good fight. If you disagree with what Skyride does, educate others and don't associate yourself with this business.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[jraf 0]

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If they take business away from you, that is called competition. No need to love your competition, but it’s your business.

Wow! Competition! Perhaps I should open up a chain of fast food restaurants and call it "McDonalds." After all, it's just competition.

Come on, hans. You know the difference between "competition" and "infringement." Competition and free markets only work when there is honesty.

By the way, how's the wee bairn?

I knnow the difference well and that is why I actually posted here. You are the legal proffesional here so correct me (I am making certain assumptions here):

Internet infringement and/or theft of intellectual property is a federal felony. Why has nobody thought of that. Unless of course there was no real infringement as names, numbers and internet domains were not registered and free for grabs. In that case I call that the brutal laws of free economy.

If McDonalds did not register their trademark and graphics, you can bet your last dollar I would immediately find investor to open a chain of McDonalds and I would register all intellectual property. It happened with a lot of internet domains in Central Eastern Europe, and McDonalds was one of the actually. They had to buy back the rights to their own brand names for a pretty penny from a few smart dudes. (I am not addressing the ethical part of that here)

Last but not least...the spawn of Satan is a danger to himself and everybody around

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[lawrocket 3]

I'm not a trademark professional, but I also know that registering a trademark is not necessary for there to be a violation. The Lanham Act merely provides a legal presumption.

The law comes down to a simple question - "Is there a likelihood of confusion?" This is designed to protect other businesses. So, if there is a website called "lakeelsinoreskydiving.com" one would expect that site to be the same business as "skydiveelsinore.com" unless there is another dz operating out of Elsinore. This is the "likelihood of confusion" which capitalizes on Elsinore's business to confuse customers into using th eother business.

There are also deceptive business pratices. If a website is called "lakeelsinoreskydiving.com" the user would expect to find a skydiving website in or around Lake Elsinore. Unless there is a warning on the site that says pretty clearly, "The nearest participating dropzone is in Las Vegas, Nevada" then the user has been deceived into buying a product for a business that was not what the person looked for, causing a loss not only to the customer but to the business in that location.

As far as the domains, it doesn't seem that skyride is necessarily cybersquatting. Rather, it seems to my untrained eye that they are simply engaging in unfair competition.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[jraf 0]

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There are also deceptive business pratices. If a website is called "lakeelsinoreskydiving.com" the user would expect to find a skydiving website in or around Lake Elsinore. Unless there is a warning on the site that says pretty clearly, "The nearest participating dropzone is in Las Vegas, Nevada" then the user has been deceived into buying a product for a business that was not what the person looked for, causing a loss not only to the customer but to the business in that location.

No that sound like false representation to me. I bet there are enough misguided skydivers to start a class action suit... . Just thinking creatively here.

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[skydived19006 4]

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Internet infringement and/or theft of intellectual property is a federal felony. Why has nobody thought of that. Unless of course there was no real infringement as names, numbers and internet domains were not registered and free for grabs. In that case I call that the brutal laws of free economy.

Just because they're breaking the law doesn't mean that you'll ever find an entity (state, federal, local) that's willing to prosecute it.

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[skydived19006 4]

Have you read The Rainmaker?

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[Thanatos340 1]

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I bet there are enough misguided skydivers to start a class action suit

You would never find a Lawyer willing to take on the case. There just isnt enough money involved.

A lawsuit (Any Lawsuit) at the federal level will take years and cost tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees.

SDA (Arizona) filed a Suit against them over a year ago and they still are not even through the discovery phase.

I cant even imagine how much they have spent in legal fees already.

Please read this post to see what has been going on. And if nothing else, Read the Attached deposition to that post. It explains in detail exactly why people Hate Skyride.
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2454579#2454579