Ron 10 #101 October 25, 2004 I understand your frustration. And I don't think they are a good thing. All I am saying is I doubt that the USPA will do anything about it. I don't think the USPA does much of anything, and I bet they will not get involved in this since they think it will increase business for them."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teason 0 #102 October 25, 2004 Well you right on one part, the USPA won't do anything, even if we weren't in Canada! I don't think that they are increasing student numbers, though, because they are not spending time and effort to proactively reach the demo. The only people they are reaching are the one that are looking to do a skydive. When someone in ohio goes on the net and finds 6 different sites that offer skydiving and 3 of them are skyride sites, then all they are doing is skimming internet traffic.\ We're not talking about an organization that put ads on TV, radio and sets up info booths at malls and universities. We're talking about a company that sets up sites to direct potential jumpers through and skim the numbers. I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #103 October 25, 2004 QuoteWell you right on one part, the USPA won't do anything, even if we weren't in Canada! Sorry, didn't know that...But I don't think they will anyway. One problem with the USPa is they need to decide if they are an organization for JUMPERS, or DZ's. You can't serve two masters. The USPA has the GM program with is nothing more than a listing in Parachutist, and a neat piece of paper to hang on your wall. I don't think Skyride or 1800Skydive is increasing traffic either. It is making it easier (like it is hard to look in a phone book?). I don't like some of the practices of Skyride....Using names, pictures, ect. Stealing websites... All really bad. But the USP is not going to do anything about it. Call the BBB, or them and threaten to sue if they use your info, or work."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #104 October 25, 2004 The BBB has files upon files on them. Here is for skyride - though it's under a slightly different name. Adventure Sky Diving 3240 South Cobb Drive Suite X Smyrna, GA 30080 General Information Principal : Ms. Gena Daley Customer Relations Phone Number: (770) 405-1036 Fax Number: (770) 405-1051 Membership Status: No Type-of-Business Classification: Parachute Jumping Instruction The information in this report has either been provided by the company, or has been compiled by the Bureau from other sources. Customer Experience Based on BBB files, this company has an unsatisfactory record with the Bureau due to unanswered complaint(s). When evaluating complaint information, please consider the company's size and volume of business. The number of complaints filed against the company may not be as important as the type of complaints and how the company handled them. Closed Complaints Number of complaints processed by the BBB since the firm's BBB file was opened in December of 2002: 30 Number of complaints processed by the BBB in last 12 months: 29 Complaints Concerned Advertising Issues: 2 Outcome of all complaints - Company did not respond: 2 Sales Issues: 2 Outcome of all complaints - Company made good faith effort to Resolve: 2 Delivery Issues: 2 Outcome of all complaints - Company did not respond: 2 Refund or Exchange Issues: 18 Outcome of all complaints - Resolved: 3; Unresolved: 2; Company made good faith effort to Resolve: 3; Company did not respond: 10 Customer Service Issues: 4 Outcome of all complaints - Resolved: 2; Company made good faith effort to Resolve: 1; Company did not respond: 1 Credit or Billing Issues: 2 Outcome of all complaints - Company did not respond: 2 Additional Information Additional Doing-Business-As Names: 1-800 Skyride Starlight Center 1800SKYDIVE Adventure Skydive Adventure Skydiving Center Alabama Skydiving, Inc. SkyRide Additional Addresses: 493 Airport Road, Cedartown, GA 30125 P. O. Box 440383, Kennesaw, GA 30160 Additional Phone Numbers: 800-990-5867 800-759-7433 770-846-3483 770-846-3483 770-684-4441 Fax 770-405-1051 Fax 770-405-1037 I guess the only thing left is legal action. NOTE THE NUMBER OF COMPLAINTS IN THE LAST 12 MONTHS.Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #105 October 25, 2004 QuoteQuoteWell you right on one part, the USPA won't do anything, even if we weren't in Canada! Sorry, didn't know that...But I don't think they will anyway. One problem with the USPa is they need to decide if they are an organization for JUMPERS, or DZ's. You can't serve two masters. The USPA has the GM program with is nothing more than a listing in Parachutist, and a neat piece of paper to hang on your wall. I don't think Skyride or 1800Skydive is increasing traffic either. It is making it easier (like it is hard to look in a phone book?). I don't like some of the practices of Skyride....Using names, pictures, ect. Stealing websites... All really bad. But the USP is not going to do anything about it. Call the BBB, or them and threaten to sue if they use your info, or work. Funny thing is that in the milwaukee area skyride is the first listing in the phonebook.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teason 0 #106 October 25, 2004 QuoteDo this the right way. Force them to address the wrongs. Enough of the wronged attack them in the LEGAL avenues they have avaliable I guess that's why they ripped off (and that is not slander) our site. They know that the only way we can file a lawsuit is if we file it in Atlanta (we're in Canada). FYI, My bussines partner is currently involved in another suit (completely unrelated to skydiving) and we're waiting for that to be mopped up. For us it's not as simple as a trip to court a paying a small fee. This will take real resources. I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelel01 1 #107 October 25, 2004 Since when is a protest illegal? If someone puts up a site that says "Skyride sucks, and this is why", how is that different from standing in front of a business with signs, initiating a boycott? It's not . . . it's just internet tactics as opposed to face-to-face. I think it would be entirely appropriate to start a website like that . . . hell, just add all the BBB complaints and resolutions to it. Or hopefully THIS page'll pop up in searches so people can see what's going on. Kelly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WFFC 1 #108 October 25, 2004 It's a fine line...very fine line. Check the facts and double, then triple check prior to putting it out. It is possible that they still could be a pain in the keister about it anyway.----- ~~~Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teason 0 #109 October 25, 2004 Hmm and how about a new company. I'm thinking about calling it 1888skyride. Do ya think they'd mind if I used their pics Well if I did it they have to come to Canada to sue see how they like it! (just so we're clear, that was totally tongue in cheek) I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
firstime 0 #110 October 25, 2004 CONSUMER ALERT! Beware of the Middle Man. In the recent months many websites have popped up selling gift certificates for skydiving. They claim to be operating a skydiving center in the local area and make claims that they have the highest safety record and use the best equipment when in fact they are nothing more than a middle man selling certificates redeemable at local Skydiving Schools. This adds additional markup and confusion to a fairly straight forward process. Things to look for on a website: No Hidden Fees Many times you will see a price indicated on the web site which appears cheaper than the competition, but when you call and finalize your purchase you find there are additional fees. These additional fees often make what appeared to be a great deal more expensive. Our Pricing Policy is simple. NO HIDDEN FEES. The prices indicated on our website include everything to complete your first skydive, and video if purchased. Business Address - Although the website appears to represent a local facility you will be unable to find an address on the website. We are located at Calverton Airport... When you call ask them where they are located. Ask about specific information on Facilities and Aircraft - They may claim to have the best aircraft and safety record, but in fact they have no idea what you will be flying in or who you will be jumping with. This is what our DZ put on there website Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #111 October 26, 2004 QuoteQuoteHowever, putting up a site warning people about Skyride is fine. It's probably illegal. Heard of slander? Do this the right way. Force them to address the wrongs. Enough of the wronged attack them in the LEGAL avenues they have avaliable, 1 of 2 things will happen. A) they will right the wrongs, B) they'll end up out of business from legal fees/proceedings. It's only slander if it's false, IIRC. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #112 October 26, 2004 QuoteSince when is a protest illegal? If someone puts up a site that says "Skyride sucks, and this is why", how is that different from standing in front of a business with signs, initiating a boycott? It's not. Correct. There used to be a great site called Wallmartsucks.com. It wasn't working today, but while searching I did find a good news article about protest sites in the archives of The Christian Science Monitor. Since it is an archive article it is sometimes tough to get to, so I've attached it as a Rich Text File. (If you are sweating the source, chill. The Christian Science Monitor is a solid national newspaper that limits their preaching to a single opinion piece each day.)Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #113 October 26, 2004 ***If someone puts up a site that says "Skyride sucks, and this is why" ================================== You're on to something here. Your exact idea may infringe upon a few laws, but a site with consumer info like "Questions to ask before booking a skydive" would be safe. If all the questions directly addressed the problems that Skyride has, this would slow down thier progress. Getting people to ask the hard questions, and then having advice on calling everyone in the phone book first, or checking with the USPA for additional locations. The site would have to be 100% neutral, with no references to any specific DZ's, and just one link to the USPA. The trick would be seeing whose web administrator (Skyride or the Anti-Skyride) is better at funneling web searches and such to thier site. My guess would be that if they saw the Anti site first, consumers would be less likey to book with Skyride. What are the chances that the Skyride guy is the best computer geek in skydiving? I'm sure one of the DZ.com people out there could top his efforts. This is where the USPA would need to intervene, and organize the Group Members as far as sharing in the cost of the site. Between finding a jumper to do the work, and some DZ whose website has space to host a one page, mainly text site, the costs would be very low, especially after split 100 ways (or however many group memenbers there are). Speaking of the USPA, how about having DZ's follow a written code of business ethics to qualify for group member status. If the Skyride guy has a DZ, or is getting a DZ, it would hurt him to not be a USPA DZ. LIke Ron said, the USPA never does much anyway, so I won't hold my breath. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #114 October 26, 2004 QuoteSpeaking of the USPA, how about having DZ's follow a written code of business ethics to qualify for group member status. If the Skyride guy has a DZ, or is getting a DZ, it would hurt him to not be a USPA DZ. They own at least 3 GM DZ's currently. Atlanta Skydiving Center, Pell City AL and Skydive Pennridge. I don't think that the ink had even dried on their Pennridge membership before they went and stole the Skydive City Student manual, erased a few names and tried to pass it off as their own. I've heard they are running a DZ in Minnesota also now too.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #115 October 26, 2004 Quote The trick would be seeing whose web administrator (Skyride or the Anti-Skyride) is better at funneling web searches and such to thier site. My guess would be that if they saw the Anti site first, consumers would be less likey to book with Skyride. What are the chances that the Skyride guy is the best computer geek in skydiving? I'm sure one of the DZ.com people out there could top his efforts. This does assume that the consumers are doing checks on search engines, or using the computer at all. I have a fear that the kind of consumer that can be reached this was is a minority. But I will add a section to my long overdue jump page upgrade. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #116 October 26, 2004 QuoteSince when is a protest illegal? If someone puts up a site that says "Skyride sucks, and this is why", how is that different from standing in front of a business with signs, initiating a boycott? It's not . . . it's just internet tactics as opposed to face-to-face. I think it would be entirely appropriate to start a website like that . . . hell, just add all the BBB complaints and resolutions to it. Or hopefully THIS page'll pop up in searches so people can see what's going on. Kelly I would say get the short bald prick (that's Cary, if anyone's wondering) on camera on a show like 20/20 or Dateline NBC and make him look as bad as they did Ted Mayfield from the old DZ in Oregon. Make sure the show ends with USPA's website and phone number info so people know where to go to find a REAL and honest DZ, and not this Skyride bullshit. Wishful thinking, I know... But ultimately, people are going to have to sue the prick to get their justice, and he is counting on you not having the resources to do so. And if you do have the resources, chances are he can outlast you... so, a class-action suit may be the way to go, but I'm no lawyer. I prefer publicly humiliating them on TV... BBB's a good place to start to check a company's credibility, but how many people actually do that or think of it in the first place before doing business with them? Any way you cut it, its going to be a long battle to level the playing field or keep them in check. I'll settle for holding them accountable for their actions, and we divvy up their stuff! Blue Skies Billy"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #117 October 26, 2004 If the USPA would implement an ehtincs code for group members, say, by Jan, 1, then give 90 days for compliance, this guy would be out of group memebership by the spring. Of course the USPA would first need to realize than they are a private organization, and can do whatever they want, regardless of who it offends. The idea of following an ethincs code as a requisite for memebership to a trade organization is not new. In fact I just recently read such an ethincs code, and it was pretty simple stuff. It's not a law, or a contract that opens them up to any liability, so it doens't need to be penned by a lawyer. It's simple: You want in, you follow the rules. You want in, you understand that we can boot you out at any time, with or without explanation. Done. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #118 October 26, 2004 The DZO's on the USPA BOD shot down the ethics code that was introduced. They don't want to have to have standards either. I completely agree that some type of ethics codes needs to be in place. Also, the USPA, could find many reasons to revoke their individual memberships as well if the BOD would vote FOR an ethics code for GM's. I believe part of the "punishment" could be to revoke the individual memberships of the DZO's. Many times they state they are USPA CERTIFIED. We all know the USPA does not Certify dropzones. JudyBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #119 October 26, 2004 Skyride DZs don't need to worry about USPA certification. They're National Skydiving Association approved! Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #120 October 26, 2004 QuoteSkyride DZs don't need to worry about USPA certification. They're National Skydiving Association approved! Dave How do I join? judyBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelel01 1 #121 October 26, 2004 Apparently, all you have to do is type it on your website, and it's true! Kelly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #122 October 26, 2004 QuoteIf the USPA would implement an ehtincs code for group members, say, by Jan, 1, then give 90 days for compliance, this guy would be out of group memebership by the spring. Of course the USPA would first need to realize than they are a private organization, and can do whatever they want, regardless of who it offends. The idea of following an ethincs code as a requisite for memebership to a trade organization is not new. In fact I just recently read such an ethincs code, and it was pretty simple stuff. It's not a law, or a contract that opens them up to any liability, so it doens't need to be penned by a lawyer. It's simple: You want in, you follow the rules. You want in, you understand that we can boot you out at any time, with or without explanation. Done. good ideas...Here is the problem... Is the USPA an organization for jumpers? Or DZ's? According to the USPA they are for jumpers, and represent jumpers. So the Group Member program is against that tenent. Being a GM DZ is nothing more than saying you will follow the USPA's rules and sending in money. It is in essense nothing more than advertising in Parachutist and to get referals from the USPA. Last I was told the GM program was not solvent and was supported by individual MEMBERS fees. The group member program needs to: 1.Actually DO something (And they would not even pass a requirment to have a pledge to follow good business practices) 2. Go away. I should not pay to support a program that does nothing when it is run from an organization that is supposed to support ME, not the DZ."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #123 October 26, 2004 Serious question that maybe someone can answer. Where do the group member dues go? I really have very little understanding of the GM program. It always seemed to me to be a listing in parachutist every month and not a whole lot more. But for a skydiving club that doesn't even have a DZ to join, it would cost $200/year. The bigger the DZ, the more it costs. Why is that? Do they do more work for the bigger DZs? What's that money get spent on? Sorry for being off topic. But I'm concerned where skyride's hard earned money is going. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slug 1 #124 October 26, 2004 Hi Ron Sorry but i agree with every thing you said. But if USPA does try and ant type of action against skyride the legal fee's/websight etc, will come out of USPA's pocket IOW membership due's. R.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #125 October 26, 2004 Ron, you know I would love to see the GM program go away, but it's a ways off if that ever happens. What do you think about an ethics code for individual members? JudyBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
