Self-Policing

[Hooknswoop 19]

"Self-policing, a form of Self-Regulation, is the process whereby an organization is asked, or volunteers, to monitor its own adherence to legal, ethical, or safety standards, rather than have an outside, independent agency such as a governmental entity monitor and enforce those standards.

Advantages

To the organization

An organization can maintain control over the standards to which they are held by successfully self-policing themselves. If they can keep the public from becoming aware of their internal problems, this also serves in place of a public relations campaign to repair such damage.

To the public

The cost of setting up an external enforcement mechanism is avoided.

Disadvantages

To the organization

Self-policing attempts may well fail, due to the inherent conflict of interest in asking any organization to police itself. If the public becomes aware of this failure; an external, independent organization is often given the duty of policing them, sometimes with highly punitive measures taken against the organization.

To the public

The results can be disastrous, such as a military with no external, independent oversight, which may commit human rights violations against the public.

Forms of self-policing organizations

• In direct self-policing, the organization directly monitors and punishes its own members. For example, many small organizations have the ability to remove any member by a vote of all members.

• Another common form is where the organization establishes an external policing organization. This organization is established, and controlled by, the parent organization, so cannot be considered independent, however.

• In another form, the organization sets up a committee or division for policing the remainder of the organization. The House Ethics Committee is an example in the United States government, while various police departments employ an Internal Affairs division to perform a similar function."


Does USPA meet this definition?

GM DZ's are required to sign a document pledging; "to follow USPA Basic Safety Requirements, including providing training by only USPA-rated instructors, and using USPA-required equipment."

Does the USPA "monitor its own adherence to legal, ethical, or safety standards" and "directly monitor(s) and punishe(s) its own members"?

Is it a coincidence that Don Yarling had a presentation at PIA 2001 about the Instructor shortage and shortly thereafter the course standards for AFFI's were lowered?

Why does USPA not protect Instructors that they certify when a DZO demands they violate a BSR?

Why did the DZ inspection program fail?

Why doesn't the USPA maintain a manufacturer Service Bulletin database similar to the APF?

Why doesn't USPA require minimum performance requirements for Instructors renewing their rating(s)?

Why does the USPA require GM DZ's to require skydivers to me USPA members in order to skydive at that DZ?

How often are the BSR's violated ? Rarely? Often?

"On rare occasions, USPA Regional Directors may investigate when USPA individual members or Group Member drop zones deviate from the BSRs."

Derek

[IanHarrop 42]

good point to raise.... this is happening now to us in Canada. It looks like the government is about to regulate skydiving and we don't have, and can't get, much information about what they are going to do to us.

Was this because CSPA didn't do a good enough job?

Some will say yes and site examples, some from very long ago, where CSPA didn't act as effectively as some, probably a very vocal minority, would have hoped.

Others will tell you its because of a non-CSPA dropzone having several accidents that were highly visible to the public and all the bad press skydiving got because of these accidents.

Unfortunately the very vocal few and the bad press together are going to see skydiving regulated in Canada and the government has not been very open to working with CSPA to develop whatever regulations they are going to impose on us.

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[squarecanopy 0]

Damn Derek did you stay up all night working on this one??!!??!!
Your posts never cease to amaze me. Quite a piece of work!
See you soon at the tunnel - my shoulder is almost healed...

Just burning a hole in the sky.....

[davelepka 4]

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an external, independent organization is often given the duty of policing them, sometimes with highly punitive measures taken against the organization.

The problem is that when things get bad enough to warrant this, the external organization is likely to take a knee-jerk, more-is-always better approach.

In the early days of being under the watchful eye of the FAA, we can be assured that they will enforce the most conservative measures they can imagine for any given situation. It will become the burden of time and experiece to show that less-restrictive measures would be suitable. Once that has been proven, we will be able to begin the process of getting the FAA to change the rules. We all know what a pleasure it is to get the FAA the change anything.

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"On rare occasions, USPA Regional Directors may investigate when USPA individual members or Group Member drop zones deviate from the BSRs."

...and here lies the rub. What to do when it's the RD himself who is guilty of the infraction, and he also happens to be the manager of the DZ where it occured?

Now that's what I call a sticky situation.

[2shay 0]

I am not really a fan of the uspa. I know I pay them so much a year to renew, but what do you REALLY get from it after you are licensed. Insurance if I hit a car? not going to do that and if so, i will deal with it then, still not gonna happen. What do you really get to jump at uspa dz's? Why you are licensed, it does not make you any safer to them if you are a paying member. I guess good ole' common sense is just about nearly gone and so we must rely on organizations to tell us what we should be doing in the first place.

don't try your bullshit with me!!!

[DSE 5]

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I am not really a fan of the uspa. I know I pay them so much a year to renew, but what do you REALLY get from it after you are licensed. Insurance if I hit a car? not going to do that and if so, i will deal with it then, still not gonna happen. What do you really get to jump at uspa dz's? Why you are licensed, it does not make you any safer to them if you are a paying member. I guess good ole' common sense is just about nearly gone and so we must rely on organizations to tell us what we should be doing in the first place.

\

One thing you absolutely get, is a voice in Washington DC. Any time you have a large group of people, you're going to find an organizing body. That's Sociology 101. You might not like it, you might not agree with them, you might not appreciate anything they've done past/present/future, but they're gonna exist whether it's skydiving or insurance salesmen.
I'm curious to understand the certainty that you'll never run into an obstacle of any kind wherein you might be required to pay for it. I'd give almost anything for that sort of self-confidence. In 35 years of driving, I've never once hit another vehicle. But I'm grateful for the insurance I have just in case it happens.
USPA may not be perfect, and it surely has its flaws. On the other hand, I can't imagine a bigger mess than a bunch of skydivers attempting to police themselves on an individual basis, much less standing without an organized body in an FAA hearing.

[AUSkyguy 0]

www.myspace.com/lasa_skydiving

-Chris Martin

[2shay 0]

I think of the uspa kind of like a union gone bad sometimes. They did/do their good and now they continue to ask for compensation when they are not provided anything more really. I have seen a few dz's these last few years not affiliate thier dz with uspa for whatever reason, but I think that is kind of funny/weird. I want to make it clear that I am not against totally, hate, or am not appreciative to the uspa, but I think there could be a more middle of the road (happy medium) to it.

don't try your bullshit with me!!!

[mnealtx 0]

Do those non-affiliated DZ's not require a USPA license for you to jump? If not, then let your membership (and licenses and ratings) expire and just jump there...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[DSE 5]

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I think of the uspa kind of like a union gone bad sometimes. They did/do their good and now they continue to ask for compensation when they are not provided anything more really. I have seen a few dz's these last few years not affiliate thier dz with uspa for whatever reason, but I think that is kind of funny/weird. I want to make it clear that I am not against totally, hate, or am not appreciative to the uspa, but I think there could be a more middle of the road (happy medium) to it.

I don't wanna be their cheerleader, but to describe them as a "union gone bad?"
Ridiculous.
A good recent example is the a FSDO grounding an aircraft as the result of his interpretation of oxygen requirements on a skydiving aircraft. USPA was in immediate contact with the FAA. Do you think the FAA prefers hearing from 200 dropzone owners, 2000 skydivers, or two USPA representatives?
Do you understand what a "lobby" does?

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

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A good recent example is the a FSDO grounding an aircraft as the result of his interpretation of oxygen requirements on a skydiving aircraft. USPA was in immediate contact with the FAA. Do you think the FAA prefers hearing from 200 dropzone owners, 2000 skydivers, or two USPA representatives?

While USPA frustrates me sometimes (usually when I'm cutting them a check for $50 every april), this is exactly the reason that I support their existence.

The number of times that USPA has intercepted the FAA, congress, ect to prevent something very bad from happening to skydiving is worth the money, and yes, even worth the bullshit. Top that with their help of several DZ's that have had lawsuits/insurance issues, and I think they're doing a pretty good job, although there is plenty of room for improvement.

Bottom line, if USPA did not exist we would have: 1) a free-for-all system that would have big(er) saftey issues, or 2) an external organization that would cost more money for fewer services that are a lot shittier.

By nature, their work is behind the scenes... both because most jumpers aren't interested and because their whole job is to take potentially high-level issues and quietly resolve them with the proper authorities and away from the media, so joe skydiver isn't affected.

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[2shay 0]

MIDDLE OF THE ROAD CONCENSUS! There is no way that I can explain this over the computer in any way that people will understand the point I am trying to make, there are too many things to consider.

don't try your bullshit with me!!!

[DSE 5]

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MIDDLE OF THE ROAD CONCENSUS!

I assume you meant "consensus."
What is "middle of the road about my comment?"
Same question as before, do you understand what a lobby does/is?

The concept is not at all complex. Since the beginning of time, a large body seeks representation and leadership.

[2shay 0]

Whatever. I told you the point can not be made well and be understandable through forums, and yet you continue.

don't try your bullshit with me!!!

[deadbug 0]

Quote

I am not really a fan of the uspa. I know I pay them so much a year to renew, but what do you REALLY get from it after you are licensed. Insurance if I hit a car? not going to do that and if so, i will deal with it then, still not gonna happen. What do you really get to jump at uspa dz's? Why you are licensed, it does not make you any safer to them if you are a paying member. I guess good ole' common sense is just about nearly gone and so we must rely on organizations to tell us what we should be doing in the first place.

The insurance covers much more than hitting cars, and many of them you may or may not have thought about. I once had a CRW wrap cut away that resulted in the cutaway mains landing in a power line. The bill to have the power company come out and remove them from the line on Sunday was over $800. USPA insurance picked up the whole tab. I never would have thought that would happen, but it did and that covered about 16 years worth of membership in one afternoon.

Doug

[marks2065 0]

it is a shame that so many people don't understand what the uspa does for them - yes they do have problems and the system isn't perfect but to say the money on membership is a waste because you will never hit a car or they haven't done anything for you personally is a narrow minded / selfish view - my opinion is that the uspa is guided more by dzo's and not the general membership and in that lies the problem - some of the guidlines they pass are directed to make the dz's more money and this is not helping the new jumpers because they have priced the new jumper out of the sport - but they do help us keep dropzones open by getting airport access, defending lawsuits, insurance coverage, setting bsr's to keep us safe and promoting our sport by advertising or promoting events - people that can't look beyond "what's in it for me ?" need to step back and do some thinking about things outside themselves and start offering ideas to improve the sport through uspa before we get what canada is getting already, government intervention

[2shay 0]

now you have part of it.

don't try your bullshit with me!!!

[DougH 270]

What guidelines do you feel price new jumpers out of the sport?

The only thing that I can think of is anything that has made it harder to earn an A license.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[DSE 5]

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now you have part of it.

Which part of it? You're dancing around the question like it's a dirty little secret which only you hold. Are you aware of what USPA is?
The Federal Aviation Administration recognizes USPA's successful leadership role in the self-regulation of skydiving. The association represents skydivers before government, the public, and the aviation industry.

USPA supports and promotes skydiving competition and provides recommendations for skydiving training and instructional rating programs. USPA-issued skydiving licenses are recognized internationally through the International Parachuting Commission of the Federation Aeronautique Internationale, which oversees all air sports.

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because they have priced the new jumper out of the sport -

Example please? Membership in USPA is $50.00, plus the one-time $20.00 fee for an "A" license. After that, nothing is requisite. If one wants to move on and earn other ratings, there is the same $20.00 fee, but that's a prerogative.

USPA may not be perfect, but the alternative is disconcerting. APF isn't any more perfect, I'm not a member of the CSPA, but my limited experiences with CSPA and their dropzones haven't shown me anything better, and the same can be said for when I've jumped in Europe.
They're primarily a lobby organization that represents skydiving interests. In that mission, can anyone say they're not successful?

[IanHarrop 42]

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I'm not a member of the CSPA, but my limited experiences with CSPA and their dropzones haven't shown me anything better...

Our annaul dues in CSPA are more but our insurance is higher and as for lobbying, see this post http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2998086#2998086

All that said without CSPA we would have no BSRs, no licencing or rating system, and havoc would prevail.

We're better with CSPA than without it.

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[kallend 2,106]

If USPA were to disappear tomorrow, skydivers would form another organization just like it within 18 months.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[NWFlyer 2]

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Example please? Membership in USPA is $50.00, plus the one-time $20.00 fee for an "A" license. After that, nothing is requisite. If one wants to move on and earn other ratings, there is the same $20.00 fee, but that's a prerogative.

We've been down the "USPA is evil" road before and the argument for why new jumpers are priced out from those who have been in the sport for a lot longer than you or I boils down to this:

--The ISP has made getting an A license more expensive by making it so that new jumpers have to pay for "coach jumps" rather than just being able to hop on RW jumps with anyone who would take them under their wing like it was back in the old days. I think the 25 jumps to an A rather than whatever the old number was (20?) has been thrown around a bit, too.

I'd argue that the cost of getting an A license can vary widely depending on a lot of things, most notably how a training program chooses to manage to the ISP. Both of the extremes I describe below are valid interps of the ISP, but could result in radically different costs to the student.

Expensive, tightly-controlled extreme: the DZO who only allows his/her employed instructors to jump with non-licensed jumpers, at a fixed cost per jump regardless of altitude. Said fixed cost includes gear rental and the student has no choice but to rent the DZs student gear. Student jump protocols are highly defined from the FJC through to the A license.

Cheap, more loose extreme: Once a student is cleared for solo status (either after AFF or S/L progression) the DZO will let students and coaches work out their own arrangement for payment. Student pays for jump ticket only and works out with the coach (or even a D license holder approved by the DZO) what the cost of the coach jump is - no charge, slot only, or slot + a fee). Student may jump any gear that is deemed appropriate by the instructional staff (so if they can borrow appropriately-sized gear with an appropriate AAD, rock on - no gear rental fee).

Most DZs fall somewhere in between these two extremes, but I think there's probably a valid argument to be made that it's more expensive to get an A license these days in a more tightly-defined instructional model.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[Hooknswoop 19]

Does USPA meet this definition?

GM DZ's are required to sign a document pledging; "to follow USPA Basic Safety Requirements, including providing training by only USPA-rated instructors, and using USPA-required equipment."

Does the USPA "monitor its own adherence to legal, ethical, or safety standards" and "directly monitor(s) and punishe(s) its own members"?

Is it a coincidence that Don Yarling had a presentation at PIA 2001 about the Instructor shortage and shortly thereafter the course standards for AFFI's were lowered?

Why does USPA not protect Instructors that they certify when a DZO demands they violate a BSR?

Why did the DZ inspection program fail?

Why doesn't the USPA maintain a manufacturer Service Bulletin database similar to the APF?

Why doesn't USPA require minimum performance requirements for Instructors renewing their rating(s)?

Why does the USPA require GM DZ's to require skydivers to me USPA members in order to skydive at that DZ?

How often are the BSR's violated ? Rarely? Often?

"On rare occasions, USPA Regional Directors may investigate when USPA individual members or Group Member drop zones deviate from the BSRs."

Derek

[NWFlyer 2]

You seem to be looking for answers that you already have. Why don't you share what your answers might be ... since you've asked twice now.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[Hooknswoop 19]

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You seem to be looking for answers that you already have. Why don't you share what your answers might be ... since you've asked twice now.

I was hoping I would get at least one person to answer the questions. My intent by re-posting my unanswered questions was to try and bring this thread a bit back to the original topic, is skydiving self-policing?

Derek