What's the worst that could happen?

[davelepka 4]

I'm trying to talk a TM friend of mine into taking a 12 year old girl on a tandem. I'm also trying to talk a local USPA Group Member DZO into letting this happen at their DZ.

Any thoughts at what sort of action the USPA, or any tandem manufacturers might take if news of this got out? How bad could it really be?

It's not like the TM is a USPA regional director or anything, just a regular guy.

[TheCaptain 2]

One possible action the Tandem manufacturer could take is to revoke the TI's rating for their gear.
Kirk

[davelepka 4]

I guess that would suck, especially if the TM was a full time professional jumper.

Any ideas on how the USPA might view this?

What would you think personally about this happening? I know they do this all the time in Austraila and NZ, so it must be safe, but would you think it's OK to 'skirt' these rules here in the states?

[beowulf 1]

If I were a TM instructor I would refuse just for liability reasons. She isn't old enough to sign a waiver and her parents signature wouldn't hold up in court either.

[TheCaptain 2]

One possible alternative would be to take her to a windtunnel as they do not have the age issue that skydiving has. I have taken my son several times now.
Kirk

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

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Any ideas on how the USPA might view this?

USPA has a formal, legitimate process for granting waivers for underage tandems. I don't claim to know the details, but I do know it exists... I think the best approach here is to contact USPA or your regional/national director, and work the system instead of trying to bypass it.

I am not a TI (although I am an AFFI)... but if I were and was approached with your request I wouldn't do it. If there was a waiver in place, I would consider it on an individual basis. For the record, AU/NZ have a legal age of 14 for skydiving, so they aren't "skirting" the rules there (well, they would be for a 12-year-old, but I doubt that happens all that often even there).

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[MakeItHappen 15]

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I'm trying to talk a TM friend of mine into taking a 12 year old girl on a tandem. I'm also trying to talk a local USPA Group Member DZO into letting this happen at their DZ.

Any thoughts at what sort of action the USPA, or any tandem manufacturers might take if news of this got out? How bad could it really be?

It's not like the TM is a USPA regional director or anything, just a regular guy.

The age BSR by USPA is waiverable by the FB.
Most mfgs also require an age waiver.

Usually, the waivers are granted for dying or very sick kids, but it is usually not a unanimous decision.

If you do it without a waiver (especially if the kid is healthy and has a high expectation to live to be 16), there might be a penalty.

Penalties (in recent years) have been:
- write a letter of apology to USPA
- $1000 fine by mfg, no action by USPA (I really don't think this fine was actually paid tho.)
- TI rating and TICD appointment suspended for 90 days
- suspend TI rating for a year

In this case, it is probably better to ask permission first as opposed to doing it and then apologizing profusely later.

As far as 'news of this getting out' - that happens in a number of ways.
Most often the proud papa or uncle shows the video in the hanger in front of a bunch of jumpers or posts something to the internet.

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[ChrisL 2]

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What would you think personally about this happening?

Honestly?

I don't think a 12 year old anyone should make a skydive.

They don't have the maturity or wisdom to make an informed decision
regarding risk/reward.

The person could die. Tandems have gone in before and will do so again.

Nobody should be putting their life on the line until they are old enough to really understand that they could die.

__

My mighty steed

[davelepka 4]

What if we wanted to avoid the paperwork, and possiblity of the request being denied? What that change your opinion of the DZO? Or the TM?

It's not like it makes them a bad person for taking a shortcut, right?

Lets say the TM wanted to run for regional director, and had done something like this, would that factor into your decsion to vote for him?

[MakeItHappen 15]

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What if we wanted to avoid the paperwork, and possiblity of the request being denied? What that change your opinion of the DZO? Or the TM?

It's not like it makes them a bad person for taking a shortcut, right?

Lets say the TM wanted to run for regional director, and had done something like this, would that factor into your decsion to vote for him?

Dave, I do believe you are phishing here, but maybe not.
If a TI did an under-age tandem and had a formal disciplinary action taken against them, she/he would not be eligible to formally run for RD or ND for at least one year. They could not hold the position even if they were elected as a write-in.

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

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What if we wanted to avoid the paperwork, and possiblity of the request being denied?

Then I can tell you what I would NOT do. I would NOT pose the question to the world on a public forum so that there is a permanent, ineraseable record of your trying to do such a thing, making it 1000 times more likely that the manufacturer, the FAA, USPA, the regional and national directors, and everyone else under the sun would find out about it and be forced to take action to cover their own asses.

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[davelepka 4]

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Dave, I do believe you are phishing here

We have a winner.

I recently heard that this very thing happened, and was surprised there was no chatter here about it.

Although, in my example the TM was hoping to be elected an RD, and thinking about doing an underage tandem beforehand. What I heard was that the TM had already been elected RD, and then did an underage tandem.

This was third party info I got, so I won't mention any names, but all of the RD's are listed in the inside of Parachutist, and only one of them ahd recently had their ratings pulled for 90 days, sooooo....

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Penalties (in recent years) have been:
- write a letter of apology to USPA
- $1000 fine by mfg, no action by USPA (I really don't think this fine was actually paid tho.)
- TI rating and TICD appointment suspended for 90 days
- suspend TI rating for a year

-Nothing.

Derek

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

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We have a winner.

At least you have the decency to admit it.

But really... diciplinary action has been taken, and the event has been discussed on other forums, you just didn't see them.

Is there a point to this? Your own DZ was in the spotlight in the not-too-distant past because they f***ed up. Were you out on the forums attacking them?

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone...

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[billbooth 10]

What makes you think you have the right to risk the livelihood of the manufacturers of the tandem equipment by taking a 12 year old? The tandem Instructor, pilot, and DZ owner might all agree to take the risk, but I can assure you, the manufacturers, who will also be sued if something happens, will not.

[TrophyHusband 0]

out of curiousity, what is your position when the ti is also the underage student's parent? how young is too young?

"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

[kelpdiver 2]

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out of curiousity, what is your position when the ti is also the underage student's parent? how young is too young?

The legal risk to his company remains the same.

Bill, how do ski resorts and scuba outfits deal with this issue? Are they just big enough industries to handle the insurance costs, or do they have legislative remedies?

[Rover 11]

For the record, AU/NZ have a legal age of 14 for skydiving, so they aren't "skirting" the rules there (well, they would be for a 12-year-old, but I doubt that happens all that often even there).

[jimjumper 25]

I researched a waiver from USPA and was tentatively approved. It was for a 13 year old with cancer and it was for "Make A wish' foundation. Unfortunately he went downhill while working out the details of the jump and died before it happended.

[davelepka 4]

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Your own DZ was in the spotlight in the not-too-distant past because they f***ed up. Were you out on the forums attacking them?

Thats a fair comparison. On the one hand you have an accident, on the other you have an elected USPA official and tandem rating holder engaging in a jump that violated BSRs, tandem manufacturers requirements, and possibly some FAA bullshit as well.

I see how they are almost the same. Sure.

[Acoisa 0]

Try another country. The youngest tandem passenger at our DZ in Germany was 7 years old at the time. He just needed the okay from his parents.

[davelepka 4]

***The tandem Instructor, pilot, and DZ owner might all agree to take the risk, but I can assure you, the manufacturers, who will also be sued if something happens, will not.
***


How would handle this situation if the TM was jumping a Sigma or Vector tandem?

[popsjumper 2]

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...Lets say the TM wanted to run for regional director, and had done something like this, would that factor into your decsion to vote for him?

Yes. I would want my representatives to be as honest and forthright with the rules as we are expected to be...even more so would be even better.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[bob.dino 1]

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I know they do this all the time in Austraila and NZ...

One minor correction: in Australia the minimum age for a tandem is 14.

I believe New Zealand (and South Africa?) have no age minimum.

[stratostar 5]

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I recently heard that this very thing happened, and was surprised there was no chatter here about it.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2956472;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

You'll need to read through the thread to see it.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo