Why do smoke jumpers still use rounds ?

[rideclimbfall 0]

Anyone ?
I noticed some of the smoke jumpers I have seen in the news lately are under rounds?

I'm thinking steering might be a plus when jumping into forrest fires and such.

[skybytch 273]

It's easier to safely land a round into a stand of trees than it is to land a square into the same area.

[DougH 270]

Maybe the forward speed is less desirable?

Actually I thought some agencies smoke jumpers used squares, and another's jumpers used rounds.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[ZigZagMarquis 9]

Basicly what Bytch and Doug said... to which I'll add my 2 cents... it comes down to with rounds, I think, it is less complicated in some ways teaching folks to jump them. Granted, flying a square doesn't take a Phd, but it does require more training and practice then with a round... I think, I've never jumped a round ... and these folk aren't doing but a handful of jumps a year.

It may have a lot to do with, "this is what we've always done... ain't broke, don't fix it" too though.

Having said that, I'm pretty sure there are some agencies that are putting smoke jumpers out on squares.

I remember when I was a little kid I saw some sort of a documentery show on T.V. about smoke jumpers and forest fire fighters. I thought that was the coolest thing in the world.

Found this...

http://www.fire.blm.gov/FactSheets/smkj.pdf


http://www.blm.gov/education/feature/1999/wo/


See the article, starting on page 26 in the doc below (note have broad band, the doc is over 1 meg)...

http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/fmt/fmt_pdfs/046_02.pdf

[Armour666 0]

I would also say the terrain they jump in to and the risk of turbulence is higher in most case, making a round more desirable at the number of jumps most are trained at.

SO this one time at band camp.....

"Of all the things I've lost I miss my mind the most."

[Spatula 0]

I'd venture to bet that it's similar to why the US Army(and other branches) use rounds on mass jumps. You can carry a ton of equipment/weight in, jump lower, etc....plus it's less to complicate the jump. A smoke jumper is loaded down with gear, helment, axes, o2, etc....the jump is the least of their worries.

[NickDG 23]

The simple answer is the obvious one. They don't jump enough to get proficient with ram airs. If carrying a load was the determining factor, why aren't we doing tandems with rounds?

If I was loaded down with axes, shovels, and whatever I'd want a humongous controllable square over my head regardless of the terrain. That way I'd have a shot at a clearing, and if not, I could sink it into the tree of my own choosing.

NickD BASE 194

[grimmie 186]

There are two groups of smokejumpers, BLM and USFS. One uses rounds the other ram airs.

[labrys 0]

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The simple answer is the obvious one. They don't jump enough to get proficient with ram airs. If carrying a load was the determining factor, why aren't we doing tandems with rounds?

BLM smoke jumpers use ram airs and USFS smoke jumpers use rounds.

Do the BLM jumpers jump more often?

http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/people/smokejumpers/redding/history.html

"During the 1970s, the Bureau of Land Management smokejumpers in Alaska began experimenting with Ram-Air style parachutes. Until this time, all smokejumpers used the round-style parachute, similar to that used by Army paratroopers. The Ram-Air system proved suitable for flat terrain and high winds encountered on the Alaska tundra, and was adopted by the Bureau of Land Management in the early 1980s."

Owned by Remi #?

[smokejmprwannab 0]

I'm pretty sure that the USDA Forest Service uses round parachutes and the Bureau of Land Management uses big square canopies, and both do static line jumps and have the majority of their gear (chain saws, food, water, axes, sleeping bags, etc.) dropped by cargo chute near the landing zone.

The difference in the canopy choice between the two agencies may be that the forest service is more likely to be landing in, well, a forest. Big round parachutes may still have advantages when there is a good chance that you'll be landing in or very close to trees.

[smokejmprwannab 0]

Keep in mind that smoke jumpers are wildland firefighters that jump, and not the other way around.

[highspeeddirt 0]

besides, what altitude do they jump from?low i would guess.so if one had a malfunction on a square,you would have to cutaway,rite?the lower exit altitude probably plays a BIG factor .

[mnealtx 0]

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I remember when I was a little kid I saw some sort of a documentery show on T.V. about smoke jumpers and forest fire fighters. I thought that was the coolest thing in the world.

I think I saw the same one...that was the beginning of my 'skydiving bug'!! A couple weeks later I tied together several lawn bags and made a shoulder harness out of twine and Mom caught me jumping off the roof.....

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[steve1 5]

I think I would want a big round if I were landing in trees much of the time. It just seems a safer route to go. There would be more material to hang you up, and it wouldn't collapse like a square.

I've known a lot of smokejumpers over the years. Most all of them, who have jumped for many seasons here in Montana, have been hurt bad.

I still skydive with a two of them.

Mark Wright was on Smoke jump status for almost 30 years. He was medivacked out at least once. He was skydiving last year with a big scar on his belly where they had cut some cancer out of him. Some of these guys are tough old birds.

Bill Newmiester smokejumped for almost that long. He too was medivacked out at least once. He is ex Special Forces.

Rand is a young guy from Hawaii, who surfs all winter. He too is rough and tough....

[peckerhead 0]

Disclaimer: I worked for the US Forest Service for 20 years as a firefighter...So I do know a bit about this.

Historically the SmokeJumpers used round direct bag deployed canopies because they worked and were considered dependable and safe. Keep in mind that when this idea of parachuting into the mountains and woods was first thought up it was not an easy sell. (You are going to do what?)

As years went by the sucsess of the operation was obvious and the good ol boy net work was created. Change? why change if it aint broke?

Then Ram airs came along and the people jumping wanted to try but the people who no longer jumped (but were now in charge) were reluctant to say the least.

The department of the interior decided to start using ram airs and had great sucsess. The Forest Service (department of agriculture) experimented and then there was an incident on a practice jump in the early 90's that resulted in a fatality.

After that the FS suspended all ram-air jumping due to a total knee-jerk reaction. The guys making the decisions were all old time SmokeJumpers who had never jumped a square but the decision stuck and it is still in place today.

Now the two agencies (Interior and Agriculture) each have their own SmokeJumper programs. The FS uses rounds and the DOI uses square ram-airs. For the most part the FS guys jump into timber and the DOI guys jump in the tundra and open range. But on a busy season it is common to have mixed loads during a boost where you have both types of canopies landing on the same fire. Ram airs always out perfom the rounds.

So ....In my opinion it is politics and lack of training. I still know old time Forest Service folks that think squares are dangerous and rounds are safer. It is like a culture or a fraternity. I remember back in 93 when I was stationed at the Redmond SmokeJumper base and a member of the Redmond HotShot crew I predicted that in 10 years all SmokeJumpers would be on squares.....

Well, here it is 2007 and the Redmond jumpers are still on rounds...


As someone else mentioned above SmokeJumpers are firefighters who jump and not jumpers who fight fire.

The parachute is simply a mode of transportation to get to the job site.

[JAGOZ 0]

I would say that cost is a big factor too , better to burn up an $800.00 T10 than a 2-3000 dollar Ram -Air.

"Chicks dig guys that jump out of Planes! "

[cloudseeker2001 0]

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I would say that cost is a big factor too , better to burn up an $800.00 T10 than a 2-3000 dollar Ram -Air.

I don't think those rounds are that cheap....I remember a smokejumper in McCall idaho telling me that the rounds they use are custom made......they put the jumpers out pretty low too at times too......

"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"

[kschilk 0]

You might find this interesting...

http://www.fire.blm.gov/Intntl/trip_reports/Russiansmkj.pdf

"T'was ever thus."

[steve1 5]

[reply

So ....In my opinion it is politics and lack of training. I still know old time Forest Service folks that think squares are dangerous and rounds are safer.

[Lastchance 0]

Russian smokejumpers do fly Ram-Air canopies. Not exactly sure why. I just have a vid recorded where a Russian smoke jumper was here in the states, Idaho I think and was jumping with Americans on rounds, They all exited at the same alt. They all landed in the same place.

I may be getting old but I got to see all the cool bands.