Scary experience. some words of wisdom required

[WooHoo 0]

This is a slightly long post, but would appreciate some thoughts

When I had about 60 jumps I was getting my second free fly coached jump, when I went into a flat spin on my back, which scared me by its speed, which I managed to flip over from, without really knowing what I was doing. I wrote about it here and got much great advice. About 30 jumps ago I started again with freefly lessons, and was taught the recovery position (ball) should things get out of control.

I was also advised if I found myself in a fast flat spin to curl into a ball and explode out into an arch. So for the past 40 jumps I have been back flying pretty stable and sit flying ( about 5- 10 seconds) and going to ball to recover.

About ten days ago I go out for a sit fly with an experienced freeflyer to whom I explained my rookie status. He said he would keep an eye on me and if I got stable would come into view. My exit was OK and then I went into the ball, back to sit for a moment then again into the ball, all of a sudden I was flat on my back spinning so fast. I remember thinking how has this happened ( I am guessing I stuck out a leg), so I told myself no problem , ‘curl out in a ball and explode into an arch’, only problem is I couldn’t get my legs in or bend at the waist. The spin remained turbo charged. Curiously I remained calm and thought OK try something else, so I reached down with my right hand and managed to grab some fabric on my suit just below my right knee and pulled hard on that, next thing I am on my belly spinning real fast but I stopped that got stable and because I was shaken ( in every sense of the word) I pulled my main, without checking alti or waving off ( bad I know but I was wanting out of freefall – and didn’t think)

I landed and the other jumper told me to always wave off, and was rightly annoyed, as he was close by when I pulled.. He also told me I was spinning very fast and he was planning to come and try and stop me, and other than that I had stop the spin which was the main thing

The next day was too windy to jump and the following day I got on a evening load (fourth of the day due to wind). The jump (belly) went well, though as I turned into final a student on their first consol was coming straight towards me 200 feet away, so I turned hard right and landed without any drama. The following day I felt unusually tense, and didn’t jump until mid afternoon. I went with two friend to do a belly jump, and was last to board, as I sat down, I suddenly didn’t feel at all confident so I told the JM I was going to get off, which I did.

I spoke with some instructors who told me if it happens again to take a deep breath then relax, lose all tension, then put arm and legs together then head back and arch into a track which will flip me over. In the meantime I am planning to go to the wind tunnel and spend time having my back position analysed until I can fly and recover.

I have a few questions.

I am of average build and fitness for a 51 year old. But being unable to ball up m and me think I need to do strength exercises especially core, what do you think?

Though many people were encouraging me to jump with them I felt too tense to do so, and wanted to give it a few days, has anyone else experienced this? If so should I force myself to jump through the tension ( like we do on some early AFF levels) or wait until I feel more relaxed again?

Finally the spin, When I was last in the tunnel I had a spin on my back, which my instructor said was due to my spine not being straight ( not a medical condition) just a body position, could that be responsible?

Whilst in the spin on my back, I had planned that if I had not been able to get on my front by my second warning sound ( 3000’) on my audible, that I would have to pull, I was not sure to go for my main or straight for reserve. I was taught if you are out of control in freefall for more than 5 seconds get out of freefall.

Had I heard the second signal I would have done that, however spinning on your back has to be the worst position to deploy in. I never plan to have this situation happen again, where recovery is not immediate. But if, and it is a big if, it did and I heard the beep, which handle would you go for?

Thanks for reading it, it was scary and I love this sport and want to continue for many years to come, I have to be safe, responsible and prepared, not to endanger myself or others.

Thanks for your time.

[airtwardo 7]

Wow...you STARTED jumping at the age I am now!

Robin, It's had to give real good advice without knowing your actual skill level...And it seems from your post, you're wrestling with several things.

If your profile numbers are accurate, and if as it seems, you are having a bit of a confidence problem...I would simply step back a little on the sit flying thing.

You should work on your basic belly flying skills until you can do that naturally and without thought.

I think you may be rushing yourself a bit and like most things...it's harder than the 'kids' make it look!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[piisfish 140]

if you have the possibility, get some tunnel coaching, you can "easily" gain confidence with your backflying in those suckers/blowers

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

...Whilst in the spin on my back, I had planned that if I had not been able to get on my front by my second warning sound ( 3000’) on my audible, that I would have to pull, I was not sure to go for my main or straight for reserve....

Had I heard the second signal I would have done that...

But if, and it is a big if, it did and I heard the beep, which handle would you go for?

You scaring the crap out of me.
You're on your back waiting to hear a beep....

Surely you have some other means of altitude awareness....

Which handle to pull will depend on your altitude...since you will not know your altitude if your audible fails, or you don't hear it....

1. Pull
2. Pull at your assigned altitude
3. Pull at your assigned altitude in a stable belly-to-earth body position.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[wmw999 2,446]

Quote

You should work on your basic belly flying skills until you can do that naturally and without thought.

That's probably good advice.

I remember hearing an extremely experienced long-time jumper (40+ years, thousands of jumps) talking about his only wingsuit jump until then. Said he lost it completely. But he solved the problem by getting more instruction, and breaking it down some more.

One way to break down the skydive is simply to work on skills that will automatically keep you from getting unstable in the first place. That "sense" comes from practice for most people, not from natural grace and aptitude.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[popsjumper 2]

Another good example of why "talk to your instructors" before you try new stuff is good advice.

Another good example of why freeflying with low jump numbers is generally not recommended.

The experienced freeflyer gave you iffy advice on how to recover...your instructors gave you better advice on recovery. Your freefall training gave you good advice on recovery. It's obvious that the freeflyer did not adequately consider your current skill level. It's obvious that he tried to throw too any new things at you at one time. It's obvious that you blindly went out without considering these things for yourself.

As has already been said...maybe you should back off on the freeflying until your belly skills improve. At least get help from your instructors before trying new stuff.

Tunnel time is rarely a bad idea.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[WooHoo 0]

I was not on my back waiting to hear the beep. I was aware that if, I were still on my back then I would have to pull, in less than ideal conditions.

So you may have misinterpreted what I meant. I do however agree and thank you for all the good advice given.

I think given my current experience level that I will return to belly for the foreseeable future. I have had a number of good freefly lessons with good instructors, but I had assumed that I had all scenarios covered. So back to belly and on my back in the tunnel only.

[popsjumper 2]

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[pashakiev 0]

... Hm... 140 Jumps and having a trouble getting stable...(from whatever position / speed / rotation) Have not seen that before (not that I have seen much yet anyways ;). / Has anyone else had such a trouble??? (I had to repeat 2 AFF levels because of stability issues, relaxation was the key 4 me...) ... But again... That's AFF. Anyone else had such a trouble at higher jump numbers than lets say 20 ??????

P.S. Good Luck to you and thanks for posting! and Blue Skies!

Less Bitching / More Jumping..... Please?

[Jumpah 0]

Going on people's first few sitfly attempts have been some of the funniest and most dangerous jumps I've been on. I've been kicked twice across the face and one person had a premature at 8k...straight out of a sit (gear/pin check was done and all looked great).

Quote

Whilst in the spin on my back, I had planned that if I had not been able to get on my front by my second warning sound ( 3000’) on my audible, that I would have to pull, I was not sure to go for my main or straight for reserve. I was taught if you are out of control in freefall for more than 5 seconds get out of freefall.

I think that before attempting a sit you need to be able to get stable onto your belly at any point in time no matter what your orientation or condition. Did you make that decision while you were spinning, or earlier when you were on the ground planning the dive?

Have fun...keep trying. I don't believe in the tunnel as a solution to all problems, but it could be useful here.

[hackish 8]

At I think jump 13 or 14 on my 20 second delay I had some trouble countering a spin but I did manage to get it countered with brute force. On jumps 20 & 21 it did take a second or two to get back on my belly after a couple of failed backflip attempts. I think the key to recovering from anything may just be to force that starfish arch and flip over no matter how you're spinning... It's worked for me thus far. I hope after 100+ jumps I'm not feeling like a 4 year old on his first 2 wheeler.

-Michael

[WooHoo 0]

Thanks for the advice and suggestions, all welcome and I was certain that I could get back to belly from any orientation, before beginning the sit fly stuff.

Having thought about it, I everything in the air is cause and effect. So the high speed spin on my back was caused by a rogue leg out which at high speed the effect was to spin me with the energy I had gained with the increased speed.

I went to plan B (ball up)but the speed made that too hard, that casued me to tense up, the effect of which is to create more spin. the main thing I now believe is I failed to relax, i tried to fight it rather than like a judo master convert the energy of the spin into a flip.

I have finally got my head around the flow of events and believe I understand what happened.

Thanks for the replies and the PM's. I do believe you can over analyse things so it is now done and dusted for me.

I will practise what I have learnt and relax into it.

[pirana 0]

Quote

... Hm... 140 Jumps and having a trouble getting stable...(from whatever position / speed / rotation) Have not seen that before (not that I have seen much yet anyways ;). / Has anyone else had such a trouble??? (I had to repeat 2 AFF levels because of stability issues, relaxation was the key 4 me...) ... But again... That's AFF. Anyone else had such a trouble at higher jump numbers than lets say 20 ??????

P.S. Good Luck to you and thanks for posting! and Blue Skies!

No, but I watched a guy who was not current fight a nasty spin on his back just a couple weeks ago. Had never seen that up close. It was an 8-way and he slid under on exit and went right into it at a pretty good rate of spin. I felt kinda bad cause I was rear float and it was my job to "anchor" him, but he was big, catching a lot of wind at a bad angle, and was going to take me with - so I dropped the grip.

Kinda weird because everybody backed off and was in a circle watching him spin like mad for probably about 1500' to 2000'. Just as I was wondering if one of the veterans on the jump was gonna do something, he finally got flipped over. You could see he was fighting it the way you would on the ground, trying to roll over by turning his shoulders relative to his hips; which just made his body propeller shaped and spun him even faster. It was amazing how huge his eyes were until he recovered.

He did come back over the next few days to get current and had some good jumps - but YIKES! That was wild looking.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[raymond_jones 0]

so I told myself no problem , ‘curl out in a ball and explode into an arch’, only problem is I couldn’t get my legs in or bend at the waist. The spin remained turbo charged. Curiously I remained calm and thought OK try something else, so I reached down with my right hand and managed to grab some fabric on my suit just below my right knee and pulled hard on that, next thing I am on my belly spinning real fast but I stopped that got stable and because I was shaken ( in every sense of the word) I pulled my main, without checking alti or waving off ( bad I know but I was wanting out of freefall – and didn’t think)
>1st of all arch, in what ever instruction you have gotten an arch will damn near always get you on your stomach. not grabbing at a knee and then trying to explode into an arch. you couldn't even ball up.
>2nd you need to wave off every time, especially if there are ppl with you or groups above you. there are the pull priorities, still no one says you can't wave off while being unstable.
>at this point i think you need to keep jumping, getting unstable and recovering from your instability. at a tunnel most instructors won't let you back fly or sit fly until you've mastered certain things.(such as belly flying, then back flying, ect.)
>always check your altitude and don't rely on technology to save your ass. luckly you didn't end up on the incident reports.

"your the shit till you eat it !!!!!!!! damn that wall hurts..."

[Andy9o8 2]

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I watched a guy who was not current fight a nasty spin on his back just a couple weeks ago. ... It was an 8-way

This speaks volumes.

[VectorBoy 0]

I spoke with some instructors who told me if it happens again to take a deep breath then relax, lose all tension, then put arm and legs together then head back and arch into a track which will flip me over.

Thanks for your time.

[Freefallwizard 0]

Im so new you can still smell the paint, but what i will say is i was having trouble relaxing on my 4th aff so the instructor took me out and all he wanted me to do was
1. get stable
2. relax, deep breath
3. enjoy the ride and nothing else ( staying aware of course )
4. PULL

Once the stable position is reached let everything go, try to lose tension, long breath out and completley relax and as you fall keep focused on how loose your body is, if you feel yourself tensing again, aliti, blow out slowly, and you will relax keep repeating everytime you tense up and although you think you wont have enough time, try it, and it will surprise you how you can control your self in so short a time and keep controlling it,
and dont forget to pull

thats what worked for me for the next 5 jumps i would take a deep breath before exiting let it go as i was exiting then look up and that was all that was needed.
And dont be ashamed of asking an instructor to jump with you and video it its an eyeopener.

Just my 10 ps worth and always take the advice of an instructor or yoga teacher !

And then pull by the way.

Good luck fella