Bailout rig advice anyone?

[LearningTOfly 0]

Just a quick question for those with experience here:

Can a regular skydiving rig be used safely as a bailout rig for aerobatics (closed cockpit)? This is assuming that the seat is modified to accept the dimentions...

[pilotdave 0]

I dont see why not (though I dont know for sure), but I can't imagine you'd want to do that. If you have a major structural failure or serious fire and really need to bail out, do you want a 25 lb rig on your back? I'd want the thinnest, lightest rig I could get.

Dave

[mark 107]

Legally, yes. Not a great idea, though.

If you have to squeeze out of your airplane in flight, you'll want the thinnest, most flexible rig possible. A typical pilot rig is only a few inches thick. Skydiving rigs are frequently 6 or 8 inches thick.

You'd like well-protected handles, too. What might snag that BOC? And if you choose to leave the main behind and wear just the reserve, what kind of seat cushion would you need?

I'd be surprised if you could make a comfortable seat that would accomodate the wedge shape of a skydiving rig. If you could make such a seat, it wouldn't be comfortable without the skydiving rig it was made for. A different rig might not fit, a pilot rig definitely would not.

Para-Phernalia makes a pilot rig that accepts a square parachute. I had one with a Raven II in it. If you've already made a few jumps on a square, I think that's the way to go.

Mark

[LearningTOfly 0]

I reasoned it back and forth a bit before posting... it gives you a second out on one hand... but on the other there are many more bits to snag on the doomed airplane which would make life more interesting than I care to imagine- ...as well, having a sub-terminal opening at low altitude would not be very enjoyable...

Thanks for the input.

[councilman24 37]

By second out do you mean your going to dump the main? Bad idea, probably. Especially if you have a 1000' opening Spectre. Your going to be low, likely in a hurry, and probably unstable (not wanting to waste time). You'd want to dump the reserve with the spring loaded PC designed to open in any attitude.

So, now take the main out and its pretty uncomfortable. And many airplane/pilot combinations have little room. Many require a seat pack (lots of head room and little leg room). If you short you may want a thick rig behind you. But a skydiving rig still isn't going to be very comfortable. Lots of aerobatic pilots get aerobatic harnesses that get the leg strap hardware out from under the seat belt.

Get a purpose built rig.

BTW Having a sub terminal opening at low atltitude is more enjoyable than having NO opening.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[LearningTOfly 0]

I though that the main would be an option if altitiude was in surplus. Looking at the big picture, though, there seem to be just too many variables...

Thanks to all for the good info and no flaming...

[airtwardo 7]

Quote

Just a quick question for those with experience here:

Can a regular skydiving rig be used safely as a bailout rig for aerobatics (closed cockpit)? This is assuming that the seat is modified to accept the dimentions...

No

And here's why~

It's to big...
even if you configure the seat to accept the extra
bulk you won't be able to egress the cockpit as quickly
as with a slimmer rig designed for that purpose.
Closed canopy - may not come off as some are designed
to do and may not open fully if spinning.

It's to heavy...
Say you snap a wing and are in a 3 G spin that's building,
now you rig weights 75 pounds...and you weigh 450!
You've handy capped yourself tremendously.

Handles...
Most sport rigs have deployment handles that are meant to
have easy access and light pull force, what if you snag a BOC
handle on the way out...worse yet what if it STAYS snagged?!

Comfort...
Sport rigs are really uncomfortable during high G maneuvers,
trust me I know!!

DON'T have a square as an "Emergency" canopy for that type
of situation...on most sport rigs, even the reserve is a square...

~Now this is a subject of debate, because a square canopy WILL
open faster and for the most part has an overall lower inherent
rate of malfunction...

BUT

If it does open with a problem, it will only get worse...i.e. line over, broken lines...ect.

And will take aware operator input with both hands to land,
even if it opens clean,
(damn, broke my wrist & which way was the wind blowing again?)

I had an emergency rig that had a square, a prototype manufactured 8-10 years ago...
after careful thought I quit using it for those reasons.


A couple of points I'd also like to make~

When you start doing serious aerobatics...
BUY your own bailout rig!

New or Used...just get one that's YOURS and only yours...

YOU have control of when it's repacked...
the conditions it's exposed to...
and it's always the same one, fitting the same way,
with the handle in the same place...EVERY TIME!

Put a hook knife on it.

Also~
LEAVE THE FUCKING THING ON WHEN YOU GET OUT!

EVERY TIME!!!

It will make those movements needed to clear
everything natural and practiced.

So many aerobatic pilots pop the 5 point, then pop the rig snaps
before the get out...on a 'normal' day...

Guess what...
THAT'S what you might / will do in an emergency!

I know pilots that have died for that reason...one a good friend.
The canopy worked fine, open hard though...pulled off an arm as
he went through the harness.

If you need help on procuring an emergency rig, PM me,
I know of several on the market...and can get you a deal
on a new one.


***

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[pchapman 279]

Just as a single data point, I'll mention that my first skydiving rig was bought with the intention of using it in acro aircraft too. This was back in '91 and I have worn it very occasionally for acro flight.

The rig is an old Racer, which was quite wide, as early '80s rigs typically were; thus the reserve pack could be very thin and flat. (Unlike the sloped triangular side profile of some modern reserve containers.)

Therefore with the main taken out, it was not too uncomfortable for the occasional Sportsman-level acro flight, in an aircraft with upright seating. A pillow in the main tray increases comfort. The now-free cutaway cable housings stuck up next to my face unless taped down. Since it was an old rig, the reserve was round, so that was no different than most pilot rigs.

Nevertheless the whole idea is usually not all that practical for regular use.

[riggerrob 643]

Wearing a skydiving rig for aerobatics is a bad idea.
Aside from the bulk, weight and complexity issues, skydiving rigs are uncomfortable when pulling serious Gs.
The problem is that most skydiving rigs are far too short, maybe 15 inches long (only belt level) whereas most pilot emergency parachutes (PEP) are more like 22 inches long, so that they rest on the seat bottom. Ergo PEPs support their own weight, instead of dragging down the pilot's shoulders.

As for the old argument over round versus square .... Two decades ago most skydiving schools switched to square mains for students. Now most of them also have square reserves for students, ergo few skydiving instructors have nay experience jumping round parachutes. They cannot teach what they have never done.
Finally, a decade ago I assisted with all the drop tests on
Rigging Innovations' P-124A/Aviator PEP which includes a huge (290 square feet) square canopy.

Come on folks, the decision about round versus square was made a decade or two decades ago. The only pilots still wearing round parachutes are too cheap or too lazy to buy modern canopies.

[airtwardo 7]

Quote

Come on folks, the decision about round versus square was made a decade or two decades ago. The only pilots still wearing round parachutes are too cheap or too lazy to buy modern canopies.

***


Maybe in the world of skydiving it has...

At the PIA convention I'll ask manufactures
what the raito sold is, round to square for
bailout rigs...
I don't know, but I'd bet it isn't even close.

I can't think of one top airshow pilot or
ranked aerobatic competitor that uses a
square emergency rig.

The one's I know say they don't want a parachute
that they have to learn how to fly and be somewhat
current with...many don't even know that their round
rig is steerable!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[riggerrob 643]

Yes, it is amazing how arrogant and clueless the average aerobatic pilot is about his lumpy, expensive, cumbersome seat cushion ... er parachute.
They prefer to focus their training on learning how to fly the airplane gracefully enough that they never have to worry about bailing out. .. and rightfully so.

Then again, most of them believe that if you only break a leg, it was a good parachute landing.
Maybe we should change our advertising to reflect the concept of square canopies improving landings,
... landings in pastures,
... landings that they can walk away from.

[airtwardo 7]

Quote

Then again, most of them believe that if you only break a leg, it was a good parachute landing.
Maybe we should change our advertising to reflect the concept of square canopies improving landings,
... landings in pastures,
... landings that they can walk away from.

***

Preaching to the choir there...

I've tried.

It seems that as you inferred, the rig is rather low
on the priority list.

We do a lot of air shows, and it seldom fails,
someone will bring around a bailout rig that's
"Just out of date"
for a repack...and needs it for the show.

We always try to generally go over how to use it,
take care of and maintain it..and suggest updates.
(Can't guess how many hook knives I've given away)

But all to often it's an after thought...
a seat pad..as you say.

Heck one guy has a 23 foot Tri-Con that's 25 (+ -)
years old, in a container that gets replaced every
2-3 years!
"It's never been jumped, why replace it?"

On the other hand..
there is 'some' validity to their opinion
just getting out and open is enough to deal with.



Edited to add:
One line I heard this year~
"The Blue Angles...they like the 'old' ones better,
and THEY could have anything!"


HUH!?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[sundevil777 102]

Quote

Finally, a decade ago I assisted with all the drop tests on
Rigging Innovations' P-124A/Aviator PEP which includes a huge (290 square feet) square canopy.

That's the one that you don't need to flare because the descent rate is so low, right?

Some good video of a heavy guy landing a small, old, hi porosity round might help sales? Or maybe denial is too strong.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[riggerrob 643]

Quote

Quote

Finally, a decade ago I assisted with all the drop tests on
Rigging Innovations' P-124A/Aviator PEP which includes a huge (290 square feet) square canopy.

That's the one that you don't need to flare because the descent rate is so low, right?

Some good video of a heavy guy landing a small, old, hi porosity round might help sales? Or maybe denial is too strong.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yes.
During several manned jumps, I deliberately crashed a P124A-290 down-wind, into the Elsinore toolees, with no flare.
Most of those landings were softer than my landings under military T-10s.

Flared landings with P-124A-290 were boring, like good landings with Mantas.

M/Cpl (ret'd) Rob Warner, Canadian Army Basic Parachutist Wings, West German Army Bronze Paratrooper Wings, CD, BA and a bunch of other letters

[PhreeZone 20]

Yep, there are a series of photos showing a no hands, stand up landing of the test jumps at my DZ. Orange and White canopy. Looked like if you wantedto flare you had to do a riser flare, is that right?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[argon 0]

It would depend on the airplane. I have owned 2 Pitts aircraft. My S1C- no way, I could hardly get in without a parachute-consider the g-loading that is probably involved if you break the airframe and have to get out. In an S2A or S2B where you can jettison the canopy-it would depend on your size. Me, at 6'00" and 210 lbs-no way,I'd be stuck if I had a sport rig on. In a monoplane like the extra 300 your kind of lying back in the seat-as opposed to bolt upright in the Pitts.In that case It would be very uncomfortable. For the post that think most pilots don't ever think about bailing out-I would agree-many I know rarely get the rigs repacked on time.I can't see how you could use a sport rig-even with two very small canopies Plus-you have to consider possibly using the rig at very high airspeeds-well over 200 knots. PS. If you do manage to get out of a crippled plane chances are you are going to be VERY close to the ground. Pull silver.

***********
Freedom isn't free. Don't forget: Mother Earth is waiting for you--there is a debt you have to pay...... POPS #9329 Commercial Pilot,Instrument MEL

[MikeJD 0]

Do most purpose-made bailout rigs have the deployment handle in the same place as a skydiving rig reserve handle? I took a trial glider flight last weekend and wore a bailout rig with that configuration. When being briefed, it took a couple of attempts for the instructor to get me to use my right hand!

Had we had to bail out, I wonder which canopy I would have gone for first - the 'reserve', or the non-existent main? Whichever, I bet it would have ended up being a left-handed pull

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