Tracking question

[inyournavl 0]

I have been making solo tracking dives to improve my tracking. Can I determine from the speed of my fall rate while tracking if I am improving? Say my regular fall rate is 120mph and my fall rate in a track is 140. If I get my fall rate slower would that indicate I'm tracking better? What would be a fall rate for a good track anyhow?

It doesn't have to make sense, It's just the way things are.

[skybytch 273]

A slower fall rate = a better track. My normal fall rate is 110-ish; I can do 90 in a hard track. If you're doing 140 you aren't tracking, you're diving - which isn't unusual, even for people with experience.

It's best if you can find an experienced someone to show you the correct body position, but maybe this will help you visualize it until you can. Start with whatever body position you are using now. Then roll your shoulders forward (think about creating a cup with your upper chest), push your hands below your body (ie not at your side or swept back) and push down hard on the air with your legs. You'll notice the difference immediately. Play with your arm, leg and shoulder positions to determine what get you different speeds/amounts of "lift."

Tracking is a survival skill. Good on you for spending the jumps to work on it.

[Remster 30]

Your vertical speed should not increase in a good track. Body shapes will help, but you should in fact be able to slow down your vertical speed when compared to regular freefall.

Remster

[jakee 1,489]

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If I get my fall rate slower would that indicate I'm tracking better?

Generally speaking yes. The cupped body position and the lift provided from good forward speed should lead to quite low vertical speeds.

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What would be a fall rate for a good track anyhow?

Pretty low Sub 100mph might be a good starting point. I think right now focusing on the feelings you get in the air is going to be more important than what your audible says afterwards though.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[stayhigh 2]

what is good track???
falling slow but not going anywhere
or
falling fast but moving somewhere???

cuz you can't go very fast(ground speed) by falling slow(horizontal speed)..

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[BIGUN 1,312]

Ask around the most experienced skydivers at Cross Keys to find out who they consider the fastest flattest big-way tracker.
Then, ask that person to help you with body position on a creeper or on the ground.
Offer to pay for a jump to observe your technique.
Ask for a debrief.
Rinse, Repeat.
Buy beer.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[BIGUN 1,312]

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cuz you can't go very fast by falling slow..

I'll take that bet.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[Fast 0]

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what is good track???
falling slow but not going anywhere
or
falling fast but moving somewhere???

cuz you can't go very fast(ground speed) by falling slow(horizontal speed)..

Wrong. Extremely common misconception. You can gain the most horizontal speed / separation with a slow vertical fall rate. When you are in a good tracking position you will be going much slower vertically than in a neutral freefall position.

Any type of diving down is wasting altitude that you could be using to track farther. This isn't just me saying this, its basically a proven fact that a lot of people are ignorant to and unwilling to admit.

I would bet quite a bit on me being right, hell, I'd go all in.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[jakee 1,489]

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cuz you can't go very fast(ground speed) by falling slow(horizontal speed)..

Big whoop. It ain't about being the fastest, it's about being the furthest.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[stayhigh 2]

go trackingderby.com
and tell me that they fall slow(horizontal speed).

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[Remster 30]

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go trackingderby.com
and tell me that they fall slow(horizontal speed).

Apple and oranges. Tracking Derby measures distance in a time window, hence the fastest horizontal speed wins. Real World tracking in between 2 set altitudes, regardless of time, hence the longest in distance wins.

Remster

[Fast 0]

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go trackingderby.com
and tell me that they fall slow(horizontal speed).

Falling slow would be vertical speed. Also, I don't need to go look at a website to show what I know from experience and actually jumping out of planes. But just for kicks I did go take a look at some of the plots and it proves exactly what I was saying!

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[labrys 0]

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go trackingderby.com
and tell me that they fall slow(horizontal speed).

Okay... "They fall slow"

Falling speed is not "horizontal speed" Falling slow is vertical speed. Distance, which is the goal for them, is fast horizontal speed + good heading control + slow vertical speed.

Owned by Remi #?

[pilotdave 0]

A slow fallrate isn't necessary to get a good track... it just makes it a lot easier because otherwise you'd need a REALLY fast horizontal speed.

A good track is all about glide ratio. You want to descend at the most shallow angle as possible. You can do that while falling at 200mph, but it might mean you need to be going horizontally at a speed requiring rockets to help you out. The slower your fallrate, the slower your horizontal speed can be and still get a good flat track.

Course it works the other way around in real life. You get a slow fallrate by going horizontally really fast and generating some lift.

Dave

[stayhigh 2]

pilotdave is right,,,

slow fallrate is just by-product of going horizontally really fast....

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[labrys 0]

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slow fallrate is just by-product of going horizontally really fast....

You left off the "and generating some lift" part. If you can find a body position that will allow a tracker to generate lift, you'll be a popular guy. Since we dont have engines and can't generate lift, we have to reduce fall rate to a minimum so that we have more time on the way to pull altitude to get maximum horizontal separation.

Owned by Remi #?

[pilotdave 0]

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slow fallrate is just by-product of going horizontally really fast....

I think you miss the point though. A good track is about glide ratio. Horizontal AND vertical speed. It's entirely possible that a person can go faster horizontally in a poor tracking position than they can in a really good tracking position. That means they will cover more distance over a fixed period of time. This is useless at the end of a skydive when you're trying to get away from your friends. Here you don't have a fixed period of time to work with. You have a fixed vertical distance. Horizontal speed is unimportant until it's combined with vertical speed. It's the ratio of horizontal speed to vertical speed that makes a good track.

So in the real world, a good track will always have a slow fallrate, because we simply can't make ourselves go fast enough horizontally to have a good track at a high fallrate.

Dave

[pilotdave 0]

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If you can find a body position that will allow a tracker to generate lift, you'll be a popular guy. Since we dont have engines and can't generate lift, we have to reduce fall rate to a minimum

If we're not generating lift, what is it that causes our fallrate to decrease as our horizontal speed increases?

Dave

[kkeenan 14]

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If you can find a body position that will allow a tracker to generate lift, you'll be a popular guy. Since we dont have engines and can't generate lift, we have to reduce fall rate to a minimum so that we have more time on the way to pull altitude to get maximum horizontal separation.

There has been a lot of conjecture about this. Aerodynamicists will say that lift is any force generated in the opposite direction of gravity. However, when your normal flight mode is straight down (inline with gravity) the line between lift and drag blurs. It is arguable as to whether any "Bernoulli-type" lift is generated by a jumper in a track. The explanation that seems most reasonable is that the track position provides a lot of drag to slow the descent and an angle that deflects a massive amount of air to the rear, giving forward speed.

However, don't confuse "generating lift" with "gaining altitude". A ram-air canopy develops lift, even though it is unpowered and almost constantly descending.

Kevin K.

_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

[pilotdave 0]

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The explanation that seems most reasonable is that the track position provides a lot of drag to slow the descent and an angle that deflects a massive amount of air to the rear, giving forward speed.

I'd disagree with that explanation. I believe that the vertical speed in a track is directly related to horizontal speed. I don't think we start "climbing" in a track until we've picked up a lot of horizontal speed. To me, that indicates that we're creating some amount of lift.

Dave

[inyournavl 0]

So when I feel like I'm moving faster horizontally I'm really just diving. What I need is to feel the speed and reduce my fall rate at the same time.

It doesn't have to make sense, It's just the way things are.

[jakee 1,489]

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pilotdave is right,,,

slow fallrate is just by-product of going horizontally really fast....

Yeah, so we've come right back full circle to seeing that an efficient track has a slow fallrate. So what was your issue in the first place?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[AFFI 0]

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If you're doing 140 you aren't tracking, you're diving - which isn't unusual, even for people with experience.

I track like a morbidly obese elephant!

My idea of good seperation at deployment time is to take it down to a grand (The Scotty C. method).
Hmmmm, no wonder I dont make sport jumps with belly flyers!

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[Remster 30]

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I track like a morbidly obese elephant!

Now I feel better about my athletic-elephant-like track!

Remster

[jakee 1,489]

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So when I feel like I'm moving faster horizontally I'm really just diving. What I need is to feel the speed and reduce my fall rate at the same time.

Yep. How would you describe your tracking position? Is there any hint of an arch left while you are 'maxing' or are you being really strong through your core to be flat or even slightly de-arched through your torso and hips? Hunching your shoulders up and cupping them forwards? Knees fully locked? Arms pushing down on the air?

There's a lot to think about in a really good tracking position and it may take a while to get all the elements working together. Keep working at it though and you'll see some awesome rewards.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?