A whole new demo jump discussion...

[Cashmanimal 0]

Completely unrelated to the recently locked demo jump forum...

Since attending college (just started my second year) I am pretty sure I have day dreamed every day of doing demo jumps into our football stadium. When I go to the games, I look at my outs, possible landing patterns, etc. I have very little "demo" jump experience (a few "backyard" BBQ landings in open fields), therefore I feel I cannot judge the actual difficulty accurately, but if I had to guess I would say on a scale from 1 to 10, it's a 7 or 8.

The reason I bring this up so early is I have some technicality questions. The stadium is about 80% enclosed... so no question it's a way off for me. But I think the area may allow for a very gentle ease into it. The attached picture shows the stadium before some cbleachers were removed. I am also aware that landing in an open practice field is not the same as understanding and navigating the winds that get thrown around like crazy from the enclosed stadium.

Directly surrounding the stadium are many, many practice fields. I will attach some photos. These fields are HUGE... although the biggest one is reserved for tailgating, so no real options there (it's always full). But I was wondering, with so many wide-open practice fields, soccer fields, tracks, baseball fields... would it be possible to do the skydive demo and land in those fields, and as my jump numbers increase I could keep stepping closer to the stadium until I eventually start landing there?

I know jump numbers aren't everything... many jumps don't always mean competant, few jumps don't mean clueless. So pointing out that I could easily have 500 jumps a year from now is worthless (as forcing jumps warrants much less learning, IMO). But I would like to do something like this step-up program, if logical.

I am extremely confident in my ability to land accurately in an open landing zone with wind indicators and a familiar area. I consistantly land within 5 meters of my intended target, stand-up landings. (I fly my Spectre 150 loaded at 1.3). I really don't see a problem with orientation and such in the area, I know it pretty well and it is pretty obvious from above, as well.

Would this be a logical progression, as well as a really fun thing to do? I know the excitement of the demo is the skydiver landing where the people are, but I figure flying smoke and such could be a (fairly) simpleway to entertain for the skydive/canopy flight and not disappoint by landing 1/2 a block away in the huge practice fields.

It's all fun and until someone loses an eye... then it's just a game to find the eye

[PhreeZone 20]

That stadium would be considered a Level 2 demo area and would require a Pro Rating to jump into it to start with. The second issue is that in order to do jumps like this you really need to file your NOTAM paperwork and depending on the FSDO they might not approve it unless you have more the the Pro rating for experience. The other issue is getting insurance for a jump like this. If you happen to land into the stands you would be responciable for any damages and medical expences incured by any one injured. There is demo insure you can buy through the USPA but the rates are not cheap. Thats a risk factor you'd have to decide on but I know of few jumpers that are happy they had insurance when they caused medical bills and damages at almost 6 figures. They have been tightening the insurance lately so check to see but I was hearing it was creeping towards 1000 jumps to get it for some things.

Next question are who are you doing the demo for? Your own ego or for another reason?

There is at least one person on here that has a lot of demo experience in stadiums and would do his demos on a canopy at about .7ish to great success. 1.3 is pretty agressive for a demo like this, have you really tied to sink in your canopy and still hit the landings? In a stadium its not unusual to have lots of wind above the top of it but once you get below there is no wind so you get a ton of drive again.

I've seen video of the Knights jumping into a parade where they land in the middle of a 4 way stop with the wire overhead for traffic lights. It was a really steep approach, could you do the same if needed?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Cashmanimal 0]

As far as sinking the canopy goes, I have done pretty heavy sinks low, but I definitely wouldn't do it on my spectre right now. The line set is due for replacement and the flare just wouldn't be there right now for such a tight situation as the 4-way stop you mentioned. But I would definitely not undertake such a landing if i knew of it ahead of time right now...

I forgot to mention that the stands in our stadium are actually relatively low... they spread out pretty wide. I am not so sure how that would affect it... I assume it would be in my favor though, as in, it wouldn't cause as much change as a taller stadium might. (Or the complete opposite... I don't know which is why i am obviously not doing these).

The demo would be done for the school. I can't gather enough people to get the support for a skydiving club, but they are considering a 1-2 person demo team at football games and school events may be worth their time. THey would pay for the demo insurance and all expenses.... possibly, even my sport jumps as "training." This was all in my defense that they pour thousands upon thousands upon thousands of dollars into a mediocre marching band.

This would be the deal at this point, as far as what the school would pay for:
-Demo insurance
-Rig/canopy/jumpsuit in school colors
-Cost of each jump (everything after insurance, IE fuel etc.)
-Smoke, flags, etc down the line

Possibly pay for:
-My sport "training" jumps
-My gas for the drive to the DZ!

So if the deal comes through, I would be in a pretty koosh situation. The reason I bring all this up is because I wanted to give them a time frame so I could get petitions, etc....

Thanks for your help as well!

It's all fun and until someone loses an eye... then it's just a game to find the eye

[Broke 0]

What school is this, and do they have a good biology department?


You might want to go with a 7 cell canopy

Divot your source for all things Hillbilly.
Anvil Brother 84
SCR 14192

[Cashmanimal 0]

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What school is this, and do they have a good biology department?


You might want to go with a 7 cell canopy

I thought I would clarify ahead of time I am at least a year and a half from even starting to consider the stadium... my main question now is if in experienced DEMO people's opinion's if this was a logical option. Like I said, landing consistantly within 5 meters of my target is proof enough for me that I could land on a wide open field 2 1/2 times the size of a football field.

Also... the Spectre IS a 7-cell canopy... which I have come to know rather well. It's aggressive glide path and strong (even with older lines) flare seems like a completely reasonable canopy to jump into a stadium. I have recieved quite a bit of canopy coaching on it. Also learned that when used properly, it can fly significantly farther in brakes in certain conditions than on the rear-risers, which contradicts what i learned on other caopies... of course, that was before I really had enough expereince to tell the difference, so, maybe it's time to pick up some 9-cells again and do some learning?.... I have about 30 jumps of my last 100 on Sabre 2's... but I have preferred my Spectre for video work.

It's all fun and until someone loses an eye... then it's just a game to find the eye

[AFFI 0]

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landing consistantly within 5 meters of my target is proof enough for me that I could land on a wide open field 2 1/2 times the size of a football field.

driving across New York City without wrecking consistantly is proof enough for me that I could race at the Indianapolis 500

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[Cashmanimal 0]

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landing consistantly within 5 meters of my target is proof enough for me that I could land on a wide open field 2 1/2 times the size of a football field.

driving across New York City without wrecking consistantly is proof enough for me that I could race at the Indianapolis 500

yeah, sorry, that came out much more errogant than I meant it to....

What would the most prominent dangers be in landing in such a large area? By planning to land there and setting up the proper precautions (making sure nobody is in there, etc.) and having max 2 people exiting, I don't see much variation (other than the adrenaline rush of the crowd). It SEEMS it would be pretty hard to spot the jump less than acceptable with a competant ground crew relaying good information... (there lies one potential problem, obviously... but I still don't see it being a concern here with so much landing space, and I haven't seen the winds pass 10 mph in the year and a half I have lived and jumped here.

I don't execute hook-turns, and consider myself to be a rather timid canopy pilot for the lower-end of the flight... it seems the prime time to begin training myself for such jumps, as the temptation for high-speed show-boating isn't an option for me at this point, even if I wanted to give in...

A couple people have suggested some demo canopy coaches for southern california... does anybody know of any highly experienced demo jumpers in northern california?

It's all fun and until someone loses an eye... then it's just a game to find the eye

[Broke 0]

I really must read better. Sorry about that. Listen to AFFI he may sound like a grouchy old man, but he seems to know his shit .

If you think your school will pay for your training and whatnot. Do a little research, and then give them a dollar ammount. They might not be to thrilled to support your habit.

Divot your source for all things Hillbilly.
Anvil Brother 84
SCR 14192

[AFFI 0]

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he may sound like a grouchy old man, but he seems to know his shit .

Grouchy?

[popsjumper 2]

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...Grouchy?

"Who, ME?", says Oscar.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

Damn! How cool is that???

School coming up with $$$ to make it happen?

So you've got at least a year to prep for it. Go for it!
But as others have pointed out, go safely. I would add, go conservatively.

Double-check SIM recommendations and get a Pro rating. The rating will help ease things with all parties concerned.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[BillyVance 34]

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Damn! How cool is that???

School coming up with $$$ to make it happen?

So you've got at least a year to prep for it. Go for it!
But as others have pointed out, go safely. I would add, go conservatively.

Double-check SIM recommendations and get a Pro rating. The rating will help ease things with all parties concerned.

Cashmanimal, since you have confidence in your accuracy skills, go get the PRO rating. Learn the paperwork trail. I have dealt with the insurance and FAA FSDO people in the past. It's an eye opener. I realized I would much rather have someone else, like an S&TA or demo manager who knows that shit to handle it all and just let me jump. I love demos. Have done completely enclosed 80,000+ seat stadiums before and it is like trying to land in a cereal bowl. I do prefer the smaller venues with openings at the ends though. Also, a lightly loaded canopy would be better than a 1.3, for your experience level. JMHO.

Always remember, a demo is as successful as its ground crew. Make sure ground crew is good enough to get the job done, or the demo is hosed, and/or plan "B" is necessary. I have had a demo where my ground crew had to vigorously argue with a band director with an ego problem to move the damn marching band enough out of the way so we had room to land in safely. It was a bit dicey to say the least.

Also, I can never emphasize enough, demos don't always go according to plan. Split second decisions and plan-changing are almost a certainty. You will be okay as long as you have your alternates lined up. And if worst comes to worst, something still doens't look right, you won't look bad calling it off. But you'll look bad going ahead and screwing it up.

Good Luck!

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[Philly215 0]

I remember for the opening of the Linc a few years ago, the eagles season/stadium opener, an army leap frog guy almost lost it to the goal post, rough landing on his ass too.

Are there any articles involved on how to get into doing demo's? I tried searching, nooo successsss

[Philly215 0]

The 1st two pics are where that leap frog guy said the winds w ere unreal for the stadium shape, he busted his ass landing.

The 2nd one is the old stadium, they say the circular design made it easy. Was cool, I remember the guy spiraling down the entire inside on the way down, close to fans.

[low_pull1 2]

its been a while...i did a stadium..... 25 mph winds...holding the whole way...then once below the stands...wondering how to stop b4 the end zone!

Be carefull.....i knew a friend (Charlie Bonner) who crashed into a fan in the end zone seating.... Charlie....where are you?

mm

[godfrog 2]

there is alot to be considered when doing a demo, listen to experience of others and consider very carefully what you are undertaking. consider your skills from and honest point of veiw! no room for arrogance! I once jumped into a parking lot and had a strip 20' wide and 100' long to land in, buildings, power lines, people, never do it again! gotta consider your outs if you have a mally too. mechanical turbulance and so on. alot to think about.

Experience is a difficult teacher, she gives you the test first and the lesson afterward

[BIGUN 1,395]

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consistantly land within 5 meters of my intended target, stand-up landings.

Have you done it with a flag and weight and seen the additional effects that parasitic drag has on your canopy and accuracy?

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[popsjumper 2]

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...Have you done it with a flag and weight and seen the additional effects that parasitic drag has on your canopy and accuracy?

Ooooooo...good point!

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Cashmanimal 0]

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...Have you done it with a flag and weight and seen the additional effects that parasitic drag has on your canopy and accuracy?

Ooooooo...good point!

I'll be heading out to the DZ to do some more accuracy landings today. Is there something I can use to simulate the weights and such without actually having to go through the trouble of jumping a flag for now?

I could borrow a couple of packing weights or something similar and attach them to streamers... that seems like it would at least be similar, and would be minimal bulk to have along on the jump....

It's all fun and until someone loses an eye... then it's just a game to find the eye

[BillyVance 34]

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...Have you done it with a flag and weight and seen the additional effects that parasitic drag has on your canopy and accuracy?

Ooooooo...good point!

I'll be heading out to the DZ to do some more accuracy landings today. Is there something I can use to simulate the weights and such without actually having to go through the trouble of jumping a flag for now?

I could borrow a couple of packing weights or something similar and attach them to streamers... that seems like it would at least be similar, and would be minimal bulk to have along on the jump....

Streamers, you mean the long thin strands of fabric? Won't create much drag like a flag would.

You could do what I do though. I use a 3 X 5 foot flag, which works best for the size canopy I use. Hook the top to the top of the riser and the bottom to my harness' hip ring with carabiners, across my back, left to right or right to left, so that my body prevents the flag from being as much of a drag, as it would in full wind.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[davelepka 4]

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I'll be heading out to the DZ to do some more accuracy landings today. Is there something I can use to simulate the weights and such without actually having to go through the trouble of jumping a flag for now?

Forget about flags, smoke, or any other demo tricks for now. Work on your accuracy.

Try this, go to a DZ you've never been to before, and shoot acuraccy there. You'd better be dead center on the first jump, or you're not ready.

Can't get to another DZ? Choose a new spot at your current DZ to land, like in the middle of the parking lot. Make sure you have a 'ground crew' to halt traffic for you. (Here's a hint - if the DZO isn't behind this idea, then you're not ready)

Another home DZ idea - use a frisbee to act as your target. Get a brightly colored one, and give it to a buddy, who will place it AFTER the plane takes off. Again, dead center on the first try...

Here's another one, look around for a nearby open-ish field, and 'land off' there on your next jump. Toss your frisbee there before the jump, and see how you do.

Actually, how did you do when you had to land off for real? That's another good indicator if you're ready for demos. A new landing zone, the ability to make good choices under pressure, all that good stuff that comes with demos.


Also, start with some easy demos. Good weather, easy open landign areas, small crowds, no flags or smoke, etc. Once you have those under control, add one level of diffuculty at a time. Master that, and repeat until you're ready to take on a full stadium with a flag. At night. Half drunk.

[Cashmanimal 0]

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I'll be heading out to the DZ to do some more accuracy landings today. Is there something I can use to simulate the weights and such without actually having to go through the trouble of jumping a flag for now?

Forget about flags, smoke, or any other demo tricks for now. Work on your accuracy.

Try this, go to a DZ you've never been to before, and shoot acuraccy there. You'd better be dead center on the first jump, or you're not ready.

Can't get to another DZ? Choose a new spot at your current DZ to land, like in the middle of the parking lot. Make sure you have a 'ground crew' to halt traffic for you. (Here's a hint - if the DZO isn't behind this idea, then you're not ready)

Another home DZ idea - use a frisbee to act as your target. Get a brightly colored one, and give it to a buddy, who will place it AFTER the plane takes off. Again, dead center on the first try...

Here's another one, look around for a nearby open-ish field, and 'land off' there on your next jump. Toss your frisbee there before the jump, and see how you do.

Actually, how did you do when you had to land off for real? That's another good indicator if you're ready for demos. A new landing zone, the ability to make good choices under pressure, all that good stuff that comes with demos.


Also, start with some easy demos. Good weather, easy open landign areas, small crowds, no flags or smoke, etc. Once you have those under control, add one level of diffuculty at a time. Master that, and repeat until you're ready to take on a full stadium with a flag. At night. Half drunk.

Haha!

I had a great time doing this today, actually. I used the frisbee idea (actually, a paper plate) and when somebody drove the van out to pick us up, they would set it out. It was actually pretty fun!

In addition, I landed at my familiar landing zone while doing a couple altimeter-less jumps (with it upside-down, just in case, I could still see it if I had to... did simple RW). THose went really well, and it was good to see how my perception of my altitude was.

But yes... the paper-plate thing was fun, even for another boring day at the DZ some time

It's all fun and until someone loses an eye... then it's just a game to find the eye

[davelepka 4]

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In addition, I landed at my familiar landing zone while doing a couple altimeter-less jumps

You need to be well past using an altimeter for a straight in landing in order to deal with what a demo can throw at you.

For starters, the LZ field elevation most likely is going to be different than the field you take off from. At times you can make adjustments for this, but often times not. Most demos are hop n pops anyway, so the alti is not needed.

Also, the idea is to get away from your ususal LZ. You'd be surprised how much you use the surrounding area to help you set up your landing. The tree line, or the edge of an adjacent field, or whatever is around end up playing a big role in how you set up your landing.

As an example, I've done my last 1500-ish jumps at one DZ. I went to jump at another DZ, one where I made my first 3000-ish jumps, and could tell that needed a few jumps before I felt as good during my swoop set-up as I did at my current home DZ.

[LloydDobbler 2]

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Forget about flags, smoke, or any other demo tricks for now. Work on your accuracy.

Try this, go to a DZ you've never been to before, and shoot acuraccy there. You'd better be dead center on the first jump, or you're not ready.

Can't get to another DZ? Choose a new spot at your current DZ to land, like in the middle of the parking lot. Make sure you have a 'ground crew' to halt traffic for you. (Here's a hint - if the DZO isn't behind this idea, then you're not ready)

Another home DZ idea - use a frisbee to act as your target. Get a brightly colored one, and give it to a buddy, who will place it AFTER the plane takes off. Again, dead center on the first try...

Here's another one, look around for a nearby open-ish field, and 'land off' there on your next jump. Toss your frisbee there before the jump, and see how you do.

Actually, how did you do when you had to land off for real? That's another good indicator if you're ready for demos. A new landing zone, the ability to make good choices under pressure, all that good stuff that comes with demos.


Also, start with some easy demos. Good weather, easy open landign areas, small crowds, no flags or smoke, etc. Once you have those under control, add one level of diffuculty at a time. Master that, and repeat until you're ready to take on a full stadium with a flag. At night. Half drunk.

Okay, just wanted to post and say that these are awesome. We've put out a plate before, but haven't done some of the others...thanks for posting 'em, Dave! Not planning on doing a demo any time in the near future myself, but good canopy/accuracy drills are always good to hear...

Signatures are the new black.

[dharma1976 0]

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landing consistantly within 5 meters of my target is proof enough for me that I could land on a wide open field 2 1/2 times the size of a football field.

driving across New York City without wrecking consistantly is proof enough for me that I could race at the Indianapolis 500

make it Constantinople and we have an agreement man

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.