Pilot Job?

[calphoto 0]

You get what you pay for. A DZO who is not willing to properly compensate a professional pilot will also not be willing to invest in a low/non-paid, low time pilot's training. Without proper training and experience, a low-time pilot is not going to be prepared for the inevitable emergencies that arise. I've had hung jumpers, a student's chute deploying in a 182 with the door open (he was sitting next to the door at the time) an engine sieze, no gear extension, not to mention the usual clouds, winds, night, storm fronts, hostile air traffic controllers and hostile DZO's, four ways hanging off a 182 and 10 ways hanging off an Otter. Do you want to put your life in the hands of an amateur or a professional?
Pay that professional, or train your new pilot to BE a professional. You'll save money, airplanes, AND lives in the end.

Hartwood Paracenter - The closest DZ to DC!

[packerboy 3]

How do you possibly train someone to handle a hung jumper or someone deploying in plane without actually having one?

Landing gear not working, engine failure... These "free pilots" aren't flying for the first time. I assume that training to handle these situations happens well before they have their commercial licence. Actually if you have flown 3000 hrs after your initial training to get your licence before one of these things occur you are much farther away from being trained how to handle it. "What did that guy say 5 years ago that I should in this situation?"

I'm not trying to say that someone with alot more hours is not going to be a better pilot with a cooler head on their shoulders. For sure they are. I'm not talking about Casa pilots or even Otter pilots either. I'm talking about 182 pilots that need hours for their resume. Do you think just because a DZO doesn't pay their pilot they just give him (or her) a key to plane and say "Fucking givver buddy.. she's all yours!"? A DZO who doesn't pay their pilots is no less worried about the safety of their friends and customers than someone who does. There is training involved, and those "free" pilots become very competent, handling those same situations that you are describing. When was the last time you heard about someone being injured from the pilots actions while a jumper was hanging from the plane? I know it's happened to those who fly for free too. Not just the intentional hanging from the plane either.

<----------------

--------------------------------------------------
In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[kevin922 0]

Quote

I would not get into a plane with a pilot who has less then 2000 hours. The demands of flying jumpers is serious business,

Just out of curiousity, when you do jump, do you go ask to see the qualifications of the jump pilot every time you get on a plane with a new pilot?

[rickjump1 0]

Years back I had a friend ask his customer if he fed his dog. (This pilot had flown through lunch and was still going well into the afternoon.) When the customer indicated that he did indeed feed his dog,the pilot responded,"feed me". Feed them, and treat the lowest time guy/girl with respect. Train them and offer encouragement.Help turn them into the professional you want. A lot of these kids are humble and would never speak up. Talk about safety and responsibility. Show them the way early.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[argon 0]

I really enjoy this website, I've lurked about for a long time and learn something everytime I log in. I've never had the urge to post until now-this is my first. Man, please don't take this the wrong way, in the last 25 years I've done just about anything to get in the seat but flying jumpers is SERIOUS business-you want to build time-haul some banners up and down the beach or do the CFI thing for a while until you completely crippled climbing into 152 6-8 hours a day. Times are changing-insurance is a bitch and alot of employers don't want to know anything until you are Part 135 qualified. You may be a really competent pilot and with fresh tickets like yours you probably are reasonably current--but sorry man at my age I want a least one turbine engine pulling me into the sky-and two are even better. To be honest I've spent alot of time flying alot of barely airworthy garbage at night in bad weather with only freight that wasn't alive and breathing and have JUST recently paid off some of my last training-Sorry man-you are NOT experienced enough.I know-you need hours to get a job and a job to get the hours but like I said before-not yet. Just my opinion.

***********
Freedom isn't free. Don't forget: Mother Earth is waiting for you--there is a debt you have to pay...... POPS #9329 Commercial Pilot,Instrument MEL

[calphoto 0]

I'm not sure what you are trying to say, P'Boy. Much as I read your post, I can't find a focus.
Basically you seem to be saying that pilots should fly for free. That is wrong in any profession. A professional deserves proper compensation when he/she earns money for someone else, be he a Pilot or a Tandem Master. A professional deserves proper compensation when his skills help someone else, be he/she a Rigger, an Instructor, or a Packer (hint hint). I am sure that you do not pack for free. Why should a pilot, with expensive certifications and at least as much responsibility for his charges as you have, fly for free?
And YES DZO's DO cut costs by hiring low-time pilots, skimping on the training and the maintenance. If you haven't seen that then you have not been in the sport very long.
And most of the jump pilots I have flown with and trained are not flying to build hours. They fly because they love to fly. They fly jumpers because flying jumpers is fun and exciting and challenging. They usually have far more than the proverbial 300 hours. They deserve proper compensation for their skills and experience, like every professional in skydiving, from the DZO to the packer.
And if you DON'T pay that 300 hour jump pilot to compensate him for his skills and expenses, be they training, gas, or food, then you will not be able to keep him long enough to become a 3000 hour jump pilot, who might just save your ass some day with that fancy training and experience he's built.

Hartwood Paracenter - The closest DZ to DC!

[DanDruff 0]

I keep reading about how hard and diffucult it is to be a jump pilot. As another low time pilot, who would like to fly jumpers one day i am just courious as to what makes it so hard. Is it the type of airplane, the load, the possibilty of an accident or engine failure? I am towing gliders right now, and i cant possibly see how much harder it is to fly jumpers. I've been alomst pulled off runways, and yarded all over the place, and thats while i am still on the ground, and its just as bad in the air. so would somebody please elaberate.

[rickjump1 0]

Some may be offended, but most of the stuff pilots do is monkey see, monkey do. There is no substitute for experience,but there are low time jobs in single engine aircraft and flying jumpers is one of them. Hopefully the dzo will get these guys/girls headed in a safe direction.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[JoeyRamone 0]

Just out of curiousity, when you do jump, do you go ask to see the qualifications of the jump pilot every time you get on a plane with a new pilot? ***

Roger Nelson ( RIP ) Would not let anyone fly his planes with less then 2000 hours of time. I only
jump at SDC.

[davelepka 4]

***if you have flown 3000 hrs after your initial training to get your licence before one of these things occur you are much farther away from being trained how to handle it. "What did that guy say 5 years ago that I should in this situation?"
===================================

It's called recurrent training. Good pilots will persue training well beyond earning their rartings. It's what makes them good pilots.

[ksjumper 0]

What is the going rate for a jump pilot any way? At our DZ we pay a rate per load plus $5 for travel to the DZ, $5 for lunch and have a 5 load mininum on weekends(we'll pay them for at least 5 loads whether they fly 1 load or 5+

C-182?
King air/Otter?

JM

[diverdriver 5]

Quote

Just out of curiousity, when you do jump, do you go ask to see the qualifications of the jump pilot every time you get on a plane with a new pilot? ***

Roger Nelson ( RIP ) Would not let anyone fly his planes with less then 2000 hours of time. I only
jump at SDC.

Eh Hemm...sorry dude. But I started there with 1,400 hours total time. Minimums for hiring there have been 1,000 total with 100 multi-engine and I know pilots who started there with that much. Those times are pretty much insurance requirements. Now Roger DID send me to Flight Safety in Toronto for simulator training when I had about 100 hours in the plane. That is above and beyond what most DZs do.

I know of a group of jump pilots in the North East that do a very rigorous recurrent training every year about this time. They sit in class reviewing systems and performance. They do actual inflight training with an empty airplane. It's done in house but it's quality stuff. Will it prevent all accidents? No. But it is much better than doing nothing. And that's what most DZs do for their pilots' recurrent training. Nothing.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[diverdriver 5]

Quote

What is the going rate for a jump pilot any way? At our DZ we pay a rate per load plus $5 for travel to the DZ, $5 for lunch and have a 5 load mininum on weekends(we'll pay them for at least 5 loads whether they fly 1 load or 5+

C-182?
King air/Otter?

JM

I'd say that is fair pay for a 182 pilot. It ain't great but it is NOT free. Yah, building time means you won't make much but you can certainly afford getting to and from work and can buy or are given food during the day.

Getting into Turbine pilot pay it can vary widely. You can get a base salary plus. Or, you can have a salary per year like I did. Or you can get paid per load with a minimum load count. There's many, many ways that can all be done. I hesitate to post exact pay ammounts as I don't want someone being paid well to get pressure to have the salary cut on account of what others are paid.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[JoeyRamone 0]

Well the last time I spoke to Roger about a pilot friend, he told me that my friend needed 2000 to be considered.

[diverdriver 5]

Quote

Well the last time I spoke to Roger about a pilot friend, he told me that my friend needed 2000 to be considered.

I don't doubt that Roger said that. It probably was at a time where there were a lot of pilots being considered. And to realisticly compete you had to have more time. I just didn't want people to think we ONLY hired 2,000 hour pilots then to find that we did in the past hire pilots with less than that. You know...PR thing. Gotta keep it above board.

No worries dude. You were going on what you were told. But I feel it was situational right then.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[JoeyRamone 0]

All good...

[calphoto 0]

At my first DZ, I was paid $25 per hobbs hour to fly the Twin Bonanza. In a good month I earned over $600. When we got a 182 it was $10 per hour. Both amounts are fair for part time weekend flying. I was also kept well fed by the people in Manifest. Twin Otter pilots might get $15 per load, so a pilot can earn more in a Super Otter than a regular one (higher cycle rate)
Full time can vary widely, but is generally low, accepting the proposition that most jump pilots are on their way to bigger things. It can also depend on the additional duties a pilot may have, which vary from DZ to DZ.

Hartwood Paracenter - The closest DZ to DC!

[beej 0]

if a pilot was multi talented that would be cool ie tandem/video/aff/comm pilot...im sure someone with all those assetts would be easily snapped up.

----------------------------------------------------
If the shit fits - wear it (blues brothers)--

[diverdriver 5]

Quote

if a pilot was multi talented that would be cool ie tandem/video/aff/comm pilot...im sure someone with all those assetts would be easily snapped up.

Actually, pilot/packer/rigger is probably your best combo. You can't realy do tandem/aff/video and fly at the same time but you can fly a load then pack all the rigs. It's what I did for extra pay in between IAD loads. Flew, then packed my ass off to get the next load ready.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[AndyMan 7]

Doug Smith - dzo of Chicagoland pretty much does it all, just at different times. He fliew for Fayard over the winter in florida, does tandem/aff/video in the summer. I think the only rating he doesn't regularly use is rigging.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[theHawk 0]

I realize this thread has been stagnant for quite a while but just incase any other pilot or jumper reads this mess I might as well add my 2 cents.

Any pilot worth his ballast in the cockpit is worth the same on the ledger at the end of the day PERIOD! Based on your investment to become a hot shot jump pilot your pay should reflect it. I myself am sitting on over 80k in debt with a Bachelors, and living on McDonald’s wages. So yeah I’m a hypocrite but let me explain before you hang me high.

If you have been in this business for any amount of time you should have figured out that you will never meet a wealthy full-time jump pilot (The margins are just too thin). I myself have struggled with sub-standard wages and tardy payments. Compromises have to be made to get the hours you need or even just to pay the rent so you can party all week.

Currently, I still take a bit less then I should, but for good reason. The equipment I fly is hands down the best piece of aluminum graced with hauling meat to altitude. Never have I seen better maintenance, logs, operational procedures, and onboard equipment. For this reason I accept a few bucks less and make an idiotic commute.

That being said, it is wise for the DZO to pay to protect his baby. How does that affect safety? Well Mr. Jumper-man….At 250 feet and wheels up do you want your pilot thinking about how he’s going to make his car payment or noticing the signs of an imminent engine failure? Yeah that’s what I thought!

Both sides of this ongoing debate have merit in one context… to NEVER fly sub-standard equipment. This is quite hypocritical based on where and what I was flying to begin with but having a sibling pursue the same career I barred him from calling that DZ.

Remember it’s not just your ticket, it’s your life! And come on…not one of my pilot peers wearing a monkey suit gets Double D’s slapped in his face for an extra 1,000 feet, so write that on your 1099!

"There is no problem so complex that it can not simply be blamed on the pilot" - Dr. Earl Weiner

[Beerlight 0]

I like your writing style amigo aluminum hauling meat, dat cracked me up!

[itllclear 1]

Quote

I myself am sitting on over 80k in debt with a Bachelors, and living on McDonald’s wages.

Believe it or not, independent CFI's in the L.A. area are now billing out $45 (or more)/hr, flight and ground, and keeping VERY busy. I just got an email from an outfit in Tucson offering salaries of up to $30K/yr. (plus benes) for CFI's

Ameriflight is putting Full Page "Help Wanted" ads in Pacific Flyer. They're having trouble finding pilots with 1200 hrs. who want to be freight dogs.

Yes, flying as FO in the Regionals is lousy work for low pay, but at least you have a seniority number and are building jet time in some very nice equipment. I've had a couple of former students with under 400 hrs. get hired by the regionals in the last year.

Bottom line ... don't work for peanuts unless you enjoy being a monkey.

"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."

"Your statement answered your question."

[diverds 0]

Several things are contributing to increased pilot demand right now. The airlines are starting to recover from 9/11 and at the same time many of their Vietnam era pilots are coming up on their forced retirement at age 60. The airlines are also buying more regional jets instead of larger aircraft which means more crews are needed. Business jet sales are also up which will create more pilot demand on the corporate side. And with the introduction of VLJ's there will be other business models emerging that will require many pilots as well. Add to all this the fact that the number of new pilots being certified is down and suddenly the supply and demand scale is tipping in a good direction for pilots.

Weather or not this will carry over to dz pay rates remains to be seen, but there are certainly a lot more options for lower time pilots out there now than there were a few years ago when this thread was started.

Skydive Radio

[diverdriver 5]

Quote

Several things are contributing to increased pilot demand right now. The airlines are starting to recover from 9/11 and at the same time many of their Vietnam era pilots are coming up on their forced retirement at age 60. The airlines are also buying more regional jets instead of larger aircraft which means more crews are needed. Business jet sales are also up which will create more pilot demand on the corporate side. And with the introduction of VLJ's there will be other business models emerging that will require many pilots as well. Add to all this the fact that the number of new pilots being certified is down and suddenly the supply and demand scale is tipping in a good direction for pilots.

Weather or not this will carry over to dz pay rates remains to be seen, but there are certainly a lot more options for lower time pilots out there now than there were a few years ago when this thread was started.

We are hiring pilots with 500-600 hours of TOTAL flight time. Some airlines are finishing the person's multi-engine rating in the simulator before doing the check ride for the airline. When I had 500 hours I was turned down by a 182 operator flying jumpers for "lack of experience".

Yah, DZ pilots are going to start writing their own ticket soon or DZs won't have pilots or have a very hard time finding qualified/experienced pilots.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125