Does the Sabre 2 (NOT SABRE 1) have a safety problem on openings?

[tdog 0]

There is a discussion in the incident section about a Sabre2 190 breaking the leg of an experienced larger than average guy for apparently no reason since he was observed stable on opening. A few people chimed in that they got hurt on their Sabres and either modified it or replaced it with something else. More than one person indicated that there is a recurring theme in the thread, that Sabres are known to have hard opening issues. A few said they sold their Sabres for this reason.

So as a safety and training poll, since the Sabre 2 is so popular, I am curious as to what you have experienced. Perhaps if there is a trend, other people might consider asking their rigger for options.

There are poll options for Sabre 2 owners and options for non-owners as a “control group.”

[mr2mk1g 10]

Be careful to distinguish between people who post about sabre 1's and sabre 2's. Despite the fact that they are very different canopies every time I see a thread like this you get many posts from people talking about totally the wrong model.

Sabre 1's had a big reputation for slamming people. This aspect could largely be controlled with packing technique. I bet you get posts here about Sabre 1 experiances... (in amungst posts about sabre 2's) I don't know if they translate at all to the Sabre 2... as far as I was aware they are similar in name alone.

Also remember not all canopies of the same design open the same. My old sabre 1 had wonderfully soft openings for example... some spectres have been observed to consistently slam open.

Finally remember that there is a low incidence of extremely hard openings that can only be put down to chaos theory. Not due to canopy design or an error in packing or piloting... but just that big unpredictable burble.

Ie one slammer opening does not a monster make.

[pilotdave 0]

The problems of the Sabre2 and the original Sabre are unrelated. A lot of people (including myself) experience off heading openings on the Sabre2. I've never had a hard opening on mine (~200 jumps on it). Original Sabres were well known for opening very hard on occasion.

Dave

[speedy 0]

Firstly I am a velocity jumper and none of your poll options fitted my canopy. My openings are soft but not predictable. Sometimes they want to head off in a direction where I don't want to go

There are a number of people on my DZ that jump sabre 2's and I have never heard them complain of hard openings. In fact the last complaint I heard from a sabre 2 jumper was that it sniveled too long.

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[repeter 0]

no real slammers on my sabre2.. just crazy turns on opening..

[skytash 0]

I own a Sabre 2. Mine opens softly enough, but frequently has end cell closure which mostly is both end cells but at times is only one or the other (no real pattern) giving me off-heading openings. So although I voted soft and stable openings, they can be off heading which I don't think of as stable.

tash

Don't ever save anything for a special occasion. Being alive is a special occasion. Avril Sloe

[mhartboca 0]

i too own a sabre2 (230). i'm a newbie (53 jumps) with probably 35 pack jobs to my name, including the 20 i've done on the sabre2 since i bought it.

mine has NEVER opened hard.

i ?often? (maybe 40%) of the time think it snivels long.

i often get a turn on opening.

most jumps (80+%) i get one side or both sides with end cell closures.

are these packing issues? dunno - but as a relatively inexperienced packer, i'd say it's certainly possible.

Michael Hart

[f1shlips 2]

I had one hard opening on my Sabre2 in ~100 jumps on it. It ripped the stitching of the hard housing covers on my wings risers.

It was a normal sitfly, track, slow down and dump. It happened in early August on my 170ish jump for the year. Everything seemed normal about the dive except for the opening.

I did bone some nasty local skank in the airplane the night before... so that mighta had something to do with it.

--
drop zone (drop'zone) n. An incestuous sesspool of broken people. -- Attributed to a whuffo girlfriend.

[Reginald 0]

I’ve had one hard opening, which I fully attribute to my packing error. All of the hard openings I have direct knowledge of were attributable to low-time jumpers that were novice packers. The Sabre2 is generally considered a canopy for inexperienced to intermediate jumpers. I would hypothesize that after the confusion between hard openings on Sabre 1 and Sabre 2’s is weeded out AND the fact that many people own an pack Sabre 2’s are amateur packers is accounted for the incidents of hard openings on Sabre 2’s is the same if not less than any other major model of canopy. In fact my current problem is too soft of openings and a long snivel. However, I pack it for the softest openings I can…and I’m getting what I’m asking for.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[billvon 2,991]

I've put maybe 20 jumps on various Sabre 2's, and no slammers - just a few odd off-heading openings, and one built-in turn.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Your poll is totally flawed (but that's okay as many of us are also guilty of creating flawed polls).

I put about 90 jumps on a Sabre2 190 (never slammed) before moving on to a Sabre2 170 and put about 225 jumps on that canopy and did get slammed once. But I'd be willing to bet that this slammer was a result of a packing error (the slider was likely not all the way up against the slider stops).

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[WILDBILLAQR 0]

I have 127 jumps on my Saber 2. All but 2 have been nice,soft openings. And the last 25 or so have been on heading. The 2 slammers were definitely my fault, as well as the off headings. Finding the right packing method has fixed all complaints

----------------------------------------------
"Thats not smoke, thats BUCKEYE!!"
AQR#3,CWR#49

[vibeke 0]

I own an original Sabre 135 (225 jumps on it), and I can tell who is did the last packing by the way it opens. Actually my Sabre flies great and opens softly - I pack soft openings.

Point being: in my experience the problem with old Sabres can pretty much be avoided, by packing method. But not totally. All canopy-designs will once in a while give you less great openings than you wish for!

I know of an old Sabre that opens hard every time... Some canopys are just plain better made than other of similar type. This will also be the case with the Sabre2.

That said - I also suspect, that Sabre2 is unjustified accused, as many generalize and simply assume the Sabre2 is similar to the original Sabre. I belive the Sabre2 has been improved to open better!

[mattjw916 2]

I have put about 30 jumps between one Sabre2 210 and 2 different Sabre2 190s and have had random off heading openings and/or end-cell closure on one side or another but have never been slammed by one.

Quote from somewhere on this board:

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Q: How do you correct the off-heading opening problems of a Sabre2?
A: Buy a Safire?

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[weegegirl 2]

I don't own a Sabre II, but my only real skydiving injury was the result of a bitch slap from a sabre II. It opened so hard that it compressed my neck and spine and left me with severe whiplash. It was apparently packed by a packer working for the company I was demoing from. Not a big deal, more than likely a packer error, but it sure put me off of Sabre IIs. I still get pain in my neck quite often as a result. Oh, well. Part of the game.

[Fast 0]

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I own a Sabre 2. Mine opens softly enough, but frequently has end cell closure which mostly is both end cells but at times is only one or the other (no real pattern) giving me off-heading openings. So although I voted soft and stable openings, they can be off heading which I don't think of as stable.

tash

Same for me. There are LOTS of saber2s on my DZ and I haven't heard of any problems with them slamming people. I have pro-packed, Trash packed, and psycho packed. None of it seemed to make _that_ much of a difference. For me the canopy opens briskly but not hard. I pack it to open faster than slower (Average i guess), I don't like snively things. I never roll, tuck, or mess with the nose.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[LiveLifeGoJump 0]

I know this thread is about Sabre 2 but this may be of some help.

I have a Sabre (1) 170 and until recently experienced less than perfect openings, it would dive 90 right on opening (not HARD but harder than I would have liked, never hurt on opening). Tried all sorts of tweaks packing but to no avail. Then 2 months age I transfered to a different container with a smaller pilot chute (it IS the correct one for the container). Openings are now softer (yet still take approx the same time as before) and are on heading. Feels like a completely different canopy (my pack job is just as bad as before).

Could this be the cause for Sabre 1 and/or Sabre 2 opening problems?
It may be worth mentioning the size of the PC in your posts to see if theory holds water or not.

Get out, Land on a green bit. If you get the pull somewhere in between it would help.

[LiveLifeGoJump 0]

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But I'd be willing to bet that this slammer was a result of a packing error (the slider was likely not all the way up against the slider stops).

If packing is to blame for hard openings the I going to REALLY TRASH pack mine from now on. Most of my better openings have been on bad packs and vice versa.

Get out, Land on a green bit. If you get the pull somewhere in between it would help.

[ianmdrennan 2]

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Openings are now softer (yet still take approx the same time as before) and are on heading. Feels like a completely different canopy (my pack job is just as bad as before).

Smaller PC will affect snatch force, not opening (assuming it's collapsing correctly). That's why the opening time is the same, but feels softer. It's pulling the bag off your back slower, not opening slower.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[LiveLifeGoJump 0]

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Smaller PC will affect snatch force, not opening (assuming it's collapsing correctly). That's why the opening time is the same, but feels softer. It's pulling the bag off your back slower, not opening slower.

But the above doesn't explain why they are now on heading instead of diving 90 right. Any Ideas?

Get out, Land on a green bit. If you get the pull somewhere in between it would help.

[ianmdrennan 2]

Not on the turn, sorry My guess would be container/body related though.

Glad it's sorted out though
Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[mark 107]

Do not confuse anecdotal evidence with statistical evidence. As one post notes:

"All of the hard openings I have direct knowledge of were attributable to low-time jumpers that were novice packers. The Sabre2 is generally considered a canopy for inexperienced to intermediate jumpers. I would hypothesize that after the confusion between hard openings on Sabre 1 and Sabre 2’s is weeded out AND the fact that many people [who] own and pack Sabre 2’s are amateur packers is accounted for the incidents of hard openings on Sabre 2’s is the same if not less than any other major model of canopy."

If the Sabre2 is the most widely used new canopy, then one would expect to hear more stories about its problems, even if it were no more problematic than its competition.

Mark

[Reginald 0]

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Do not confuse anecdotal evidence with statistical evidence.

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LOL! I earn my living as a statistician!

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If the Sabre2 is the most widely used new canopy, then one would expect to hear more stories about its problems, even if it were no more problematic than its competition.

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I think you might have missed the point of my post, but I do agree with your last statement.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

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[Douva 0]

After having an opening so hard under a Saber 1 that it blew-out two cells in my canopy, blew-out the stitching between the harness and the back pad of my rig, and melted the sides of the reserve container with the main risers upon extraction, I switched to a Sabre 2. I haven't had a problem since. There were extenuating circumstances to that particular bad Sabre opening (unstable deployment on a beginner skysurfing board), but I just found the Sabre to be too unforgiving. Even properly packed, the Sabre would still smack me about one out of ten openings. The Sabre 2 is a dream. I suggest it to any of my students who ask for a canopy recommendation. It's really a very versatile canopy that almost anyone can enjoy jumping.

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[billvon 2,991]

>the fact that many people [who] own and pack Sabre 2’s are amateur
>packers is accounted for the incidents of hard openings on Sabre 2’s . . .

Perhaps, but there are other canopies that seem more tolerant of packing errors. Amy's Pilot 140 opens best when trash-packed; when you pack it carefully it actually opens a bit less predictably on-heading.