AFF level 1 - nightmare

[billvon 2,990]

>have been actively working on improving flying skills with feedback
>from coaches/instructors and receiving feedback just by having another
>body in freefall with them.

I would also add that this is just as critical with canopy control. It's easy to jump a large canopy 100 times and survive the landing - and it's also easy to learn bad habits (like sashaying, approaching in 1/4 brakes etc.) If your big thing is canopy flight, no problem, but coaching is just as critical with canopy flight as it is with RW.

Occasionally I hear "well, I only have 50 jumps, but I open really high and I practice my swoop and my flare a lot, so I have a lot more experience than most people." It's not the number of times that you yank those toggles down that matters, it's the number of times that you (or a coach) has noticed a problem and fixed it that matters.

[rygon 0]

Yeh i agree with the jumping with others part. Being a student and getting through aff levels 1-7 in 7 jumps and now on consols jumping on my own it is going to be hard to determine how i am falling. Ive done 1 consol with my instructor and even then i needed to adjust my legs from what i thought was right, due to the fact that with so little experience im not quite there with body position.

[ladyhawke 0]

Yes it does get better and LOTS more FUN! You HAVE to do ALL those TASKS (and this coming from the girl who begged her instructors to just pass her because all she wanted to do was fly the canopy!) HA! If your instructors are telling you to slow down then do it. They are teaching you how to save your life and have your best insterests in mind.

You're doing GREAT! Keep it up!

"It is our choices that show what we truly are far more than our abilities." - A. Dumbledore

[DSE 5]

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I guess one can't work on canopy skills after a 2,3 4 way freefall?

Not like one can on a high hop and pop or by pulling high on a solo.

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Surely you're not disputing this?

Yeah, I am. And don't call me Shirley.

We all start with no rw jumps. If you know that someone has no rw jumps you design a dive accordingly, right? I don't see a difference between someone with 100 jumps and 10 rw jumps and someone with 40 jumps and 10 rw jumps... except for the fact that the one with 100 jumps is more likely to be able to pull off a stable exit and less likely to run into me under canopy.

OK Shirley if we're gonna play the if/then game, we can't have a discussion. If the student is doing H n' P's and not altitude jumps, then it's a different scenario. But that's not what Chris nor the OP were talking about, right?
I stand firmly convinced that a skydiver with 100 solo jumps is likely more dangerous and/or less knowledgeable on his first RW jump than a skydiver with 30 jumps who has been jumping relative to another person for the vast majority of their skydives.
You're right, the person with the 100 skydives is likely to have better canopy skills than the guy with 30 jumps, but to me, that doesn't matter, because the person with 100 skydives can't land anywhere near the area that I land. So if I'm jumping with that guy, then I don't worry because we're landing in different areas designated by skills.

So, if we're talking H n' P's then we're talking a different story.
if we're talking about high pulls, then we're talking a different story.
If we're talking about the OP, then none of these points matter...

[airathanas 0]

No matter how many jumps you have, two things are certain:

1) you never stop learning

2) you never stop fearing. The fear only gets smaller, but it never goes away. That fear keeps you alive.

I had two mals in my first 53 jumps and I took a three year break b/c I was too scared. I'd have nightmares about hitting th ground before my chute would fully inflate. Very scary, but I have gotten the courage to start jumping again. I'm learning more and more every time I go to the DZ. I'm working on getting my coaching certification.

All the best to you!!

http://3ringnecklace.com/

[chrismgtis 0]

When you say that you do not know if you are "backsliding" or something of that nature, if you are not the type of person that is going into doing 4-ways all the time like most, that doesn't really matter too much, especially weighed against learning survival skills. If that is something you are concerned about, this is why one important survival skill is exit separation. That would take care of that issue entirely if you are talking about getting too close to some other jumper in free fall on a solo. I'm assuming that is the safety issue you may be concerned about with a jumper that doesn't fall straight to earth.

I've had a couple of people tell me not to solo and while I may agree if I cared about jumping with others, I don't necessarily. Someone pointed out that you still had the chance to work on canopy skills after a 4-way, which is true. Though to be honest with yourself, in reality, if you're mind is as set on the group skydive, that is all you prepared for and most likely when you separate from the group and are under canopy you're not going to think about much else except for just landing your canopy.

I may gain the reputation as a rebel skydiver for the way that I think, but I believe in these skills that I preach being far more important. You do get the argument that "you need to learn these skills, because you might gain bad habits", which is a valid argument, but I firmly believe that us as skydivers who are so concerned about making this sport safer and preventing canopy collisions that has killed so many of your friends (I've not lost one yet), we need to rethink the current structure of what and how we do things.

Realize that whether someone has 10, 30 or 200 jumps, when they do get into group jumping they are going to be learning from scratch and either way that group is going to have to largely cater to that jumpers beginner skills. I'm not saying I approve of learning bad habits, but at the same time I would rather learn a bad habit and be terrible at falling straight down from the exit point, than going through 200 jumps and not learning any life saving skills cause in that time I could potentially kill someone as compared to... well, what the possible dangers of not falling straight are, I don't know.
I didn't mean to hijack this thread and it seems I've somewhat done so, since the topic has turned around pretty quickly. I just wanted to stress to the jumper not to get into a hurry.

As far as others that encourage you not to solo, it doesn't mean they are right. I'm not saying anyone is wrong necessarily. I'm just saying there is more than one way of progressing in this sport and some are safer. If you do jump with others, think about what you're going to do when you're away from the group and actually do it. Then you will progress as a group jumper and a safe jumper at the same time.

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

[billvon 2,990]

>this is why one important survival skill is exit separation.

Right. Another one is separation at opening time - and you need to be in the air with someone else to learn that.

There's a lot of stuff to learn after you graduate. Some belly flying skills, some judgment skills, some canopy skills. Doing a solo by yourself (i.e. no one watching you at all) doesn't teach you much. Getting coaching/advice - whether in the air or on the ground via people watching you land - helps a lot more.

[chrismgtis 0]

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Right. Another one is separation at opening time - and you need to be in the air with someone else to learn that.

You're right. I'm not disagreeing with you.

When a jumper is working on RW and other skills afterwards, then they are learning as much as they can in a single jump and that is excellent. I just don't see it happen too often. At least, people don't talk about it. All you really hear about someone's jump is what went wrong or went great from exit to separation. So are they doing anything else? Maybe, but most, I don't think so.

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

[DSE 5]

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Right. Another one is separation at opening time - and you need to be in the air with someone else to learn that.

You're right. I'm not disagreeing with you.

When a jumper is working on RW and other skills afterwards, then they are learning as much as they can in a single jump and that is excellent. I just don't see it happen too often. At least, people don't talk about it. All you really hear about someone's jump is what went wrong or went great from exit to separation. So are they doing anything else? Maybe, but most, I don't think so.

then maybe you need to visit a different DZ. After *every* jump with a low-number jumper, I debrief them, we watch the vid, and discuss the jump. I'm confident that most of the folks here have experienced this. That's what good teachers, mentors, instructors, leaders, more advanced skydivers do, IMO.
Either way, as Bill, myself, and several others have pointed out, jumping solo doesn't teach you much with regard to freefall skill. Canopy skills....sure. And canopy skills are important. But if you're jumping by yourself, you'll not learn the skills you need for 2, 3, 4, 10, 16 ways, camera work, or anything else that involves others.
If nothing else, it's poor advice for lower number jumpers.

[peregrinerose 0]

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When a jumper is working on RW and other skills afterwards, then they are learning as much as they can in a single jump and that is excellent. I just don't see it happen too often. At least, people don't talk about it. All you really hear about someone's jump is what went wrong or went great from exit to separation. So are they doing anything else? Maybe, but most, I don't think so.

When you are jumping with other people, whether 2 way or 4, or more, you are all opening at about the same time and all watching each other... that means you have other people actively watching out for you under canopy and can give you valuable feedback regarding your canopy skills. Just like RW, it's tough to truly learn canopy flight just by screwing around in the air without any feedback or pointers.

At least the RW I've done, we've just as often talked about landing patterns and canopy issues as debriefed the freefall portion of the skydive.

I'm not sure why you're so hung up about 4 way... you can jump with other people without doing 4 way. Only a tiny fraction of my skydives are 4 ways... start with 2 way, preferrably with a coach. If you think you can't backslide enough to go over/under another formation, you've never jumped with a student who backslides a lot Learn how to track and track well. Learn how to fall straight. Get some canopy coaching. These are the skills that will save your ass... not canopy alone (unless you are going to spend the rest of your skydiving career doing hop/pops! )

If you want to keep working on canopy... great! What altitude do you normally open at? Plan on breaking off from your 2 way 1500 ft before that, and you can get a lot more out of every skydive.

I'm a 500 jump wonder and still have a shitload to learn, both in canopy and in freefall... that's what I love about this sport, is the the fact that I'll never learn all that I want to or be as good as I want to... there's always some higher goal to set. All of us are here helping you find new ways to learn and keep us all safe. I'd jump with you in a heartbeat, do some fun 2 ways and watch your canopy work as well, maybe do a little proximity flying. I'm not the only coach/experienced jumper with that mindset... find someone at your DZ to learn from (or come up to PA and play in the sky with me )

Jen

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[Fast 0]

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When I left the plane, it was extremely scary, I thought I would accelerate endlessly. Sweet, that can be a really cool feeling. It's why so many people go to horror flicks. Though, you can do a whole lot more on a skydive if you aren't so scared.

I still managed to complete the first level and landed very well, standing and running when I touched the ground.No one ever does PLFs do they? haha

During the night I had a nightmare which woke me up - I relived my jump.Skydiving dreams are fun, just have to remember that its a dream then you can fly! I had a ton of them when I started jumping

Today I still managed to complete AFF level 2, though, and it was completely different. I actually felt 33% of the fear I had during the previous jump (but I felt sick in the plane, of fear). Awesome, getting closer to being relaxed. Once you aren't overly afraid anymore you will be able to do 10 times as much in freefall as you do now, or more.

Everything went fine again, but my teachers told me I had done things much too quickly. They told me to calm down and do things more slowly... as if I hadn't tried. ;) Isn't it great to get feedback?

So: 1st jump absolute nightmare, friendly teachers, 2nd jump close to enjoyable but teachers unfriendly and not very supportive (they were pissed off I did everything so quickly).Nah, I doubt that they were pissed off at you. You were probably already thinking you could have done better and you just misinterpreted how they were debriefing you, but then again, I wasn't there so I could be wrong.

Grrrr... Does it get better? Is the 10th flight actually fun?Yeah, of course it does, why else would so many of us devote so much to the sport... hehe

I'm actually really looking forward to jumping alone... then I have all the time in the world and don't have to complete silly (in the eye of a fearful beginner...) tasks anymore :)I guess. The first two jumps I made after being off of AFF were solos. They were the first jumps where I really realized that I was doing this. I felt more alive than I ever had and I was confident in what I had been taught. Since then, i have maybe done a couple dozen solos? For some people that is what floats thier boat, but I like playing with friends.

My replies in bold italics above. All the other commenting in this thread, well I dunno what to say. I think that the sport is what you make of it. I know a guy that has more than 1000 solo jumps and has a great time with it. He mostly does hop and pops though.

I think that whatever it is you are doing, be it freefall skills or canopy flight, you can learn more and learn it faster if you have someone there to jump with or watch what you are doing. Even if it is another person that is newer to the sport. I don't think you can develop a good concept of what is going on up there without a good reference point.

One thing that cropped up in this thread is comparing a person with x jumps to a person with y jumps with z solos. If you are going to compare skydivers, you should really compare people of similar jumps. I think it is a big stretch to claim that a person with 30 jumps that are all coached has the awareness of someone with 100. They might have certain skills that are better, but 70 jumps goes a long way when starting out to develop awareness and help a person get comfortable.

Without question a person who has 100 solos is going to be lacking many of the skills that a person with 100 non-solos has. But maybe they just don't care about those skills?

Chris- If you are trying to claim that you do solos so that you can practice canopy flight w/o worrying about much else is the best way for a new skydiver to get started and telling other people that, you are short changing yourself and others. If you go on a non-solo and don't work on good canopy flying and proper awareness you are being irresponsible. There are many things you just can't even start to get a handle on unless you are jumping with another person.

A new skydiver would do well to remember that working on all aspects of the skydive, from picking the right gear, learning how to check gear, learning good preboarding and inplane behavior, good freefall practices, good canopy control, and good landing area behavior makes you much more able to handle new and unique situations and also to have fun safely.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[popsjumper 2]

Evidently all you guys missed the part where Chris said:

"The only real skills I want to develop right now with others is getting good at closing in on another jumper to dock and adjusting fall rate."

Good, basic flying skills. Later, he can add group-diving skills such as tracking, although I personally would like to see him also tracking away on his dive-dock and fall-rate jumps right now.

And maybe you missed his point on 4-way skills. I take it that he meant who the hell cares right now if he can do center-point turns, etc.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[DSE 5]

Nope, didn't miss it. It's sandwiched right between "I'mtotally fine jumping alone" and "I'm not bored jumping alone yet" with the post-ceding paragraphs entirely about how good it is to jump alone.

"I want to develop" is different than "I am developing." Maybe he meant something different, but the post is pretty clear that;
a-I want to jump alone
b-jumping alone is good.
c-you should feel OK about jumping alone because I do.
d-don't listen to coaches, instructors and other jumpers telling you that you should be jumping with someone else.

..."I want to develop fall rate and docking" Someday. Kinda contra-puntal, don't you think?
No one has suggested he develop 4 way centerpoint turns, or anything similar. As the post says "There is a lot to learn that no one has considered yet." Those considerations are more accurately taken from a reference point in the sky, IMO.

[chrismgtis 0]

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When you are jumping with other people, whether 2 way or 4, or more, you are all opening at about the same time and all watching each other... that means you have other people actively watching out for you under canopy and can give you valuable feedback regarding your canopy skills.

I would be almost willing to pay you, if you could find one person on your next jump, which you don't specifically ask to, that knows anything about how you did under canopy while they were in the same airspace (coming from the same load) as you. It just doesn't happen. I can tell you where the canopies are near me when I'm in the air, but I can't tell you a thing about their skills. I'm paying attention to who is there and where they are, but as far as anything else I don't have the time for that. I'm worry about my own piloting. Anyone that is capable of more than that without purposely flying near you in CRW fashion is near super human.

That is a problem that I am noticing. Too many people seem to believe that people notice your skydive. They don't. Unless they were right there with you. I don't even have my B-license yet, because it's not easy to walk up to someone in the LZ when you land and say "did you see me land within 20m?". You're lucky if you find someone 1 in 100 times that did. So many people are busy doing their own thing I don't want to bother asking them to watch me land. They don't have time, but that's another issue entirely.

And popsjumper was pretty much right on with what I was saying.

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

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[Kiki32 1]

What I dont understand is why you cant do a 4 way AND work on your canopy skills after you open? I would think that if anything you would learn to be a better canopy pilot having more experience flying your canopy with more people in the air at the same time as you. I read about all these incidents where it was reported that the person was a very conservative pilot but made an agressive turn to avoid an obstacle/other skydiver. (im assuming it was because they werent used to being put in that situation?)

I dunno but it just seems to me that if you have more experience jumping with other people and flying your canopy with them, youre less likely to freak out if someone gets a little close to you.

I know that once I get to at least 50 jumps Im going to get some training in CRW just so I can learn to be a better canopy pilot and hopefully avoid a nasty disaster in the future.

Poetry don't work on whores.

[peregrinerose 0]

Maybe that's the nice thing about our DZ, it's pretty small, everyone knows everyone else, even low time jumpers, and we do all watch each other. I won't be able to tell you how your rear riser practice went under canopy, but I'd know where you landed and be able to sign off on your card for accuracy.

If you are doing 2 ways with a coach/more experienced jumper, it is a lot easier to get even more specific canopy feedback. If you ever jumped at Chambersburg, you'd be amazed how many people will notice you doing a solo and walk up and ask to jump with you.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[Bill_K 0]

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When I was in AFF I couldnt wait to jump by myself. Now that Im on solo status Im sick of jumping by myself and want to jump with others desperately.

Im sure you'll go through this too.

Do you go and ask others at your DZ to jump with you?

I was lucky to be at a DZ that had a lot of really cool people. By jump 9 or 10 I had people asking me if I wanted to jump with them. I think that helped so much. I wish that every DZ was like that.

Go ask, you'd be surprised how many will probably be willing to take you along and coach ya.

[Bill_K 0]

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...I personally would like to see him also tracking away...

I can remember at 23, 24ish jumps you going out and doing some two ways with me and you drilled this into my head. Before every jump we talked about it and YOU made me walk funny and act like I was tracking... remember that? And I still do it on every jump to this day even now.

[chrismgtis 0]

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What I dont understand is why you cant do a 4 way AND work on your canopy skills after you open?

You can, but in all honesty, in my opinion it's easier to do so from a higher altitude than what is practical when jumping with someone else. Then again, you don't learn a whole lot flying around by yourself. At the same time you CAN learn plenty if you know what to work on. Scott Miller's class can you get you started with that.

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Im going to get some training in CRW just so I can learn to be a better canopy pilot

I very much would like to do so myself, but I've only found one person interested and he isn't at the DZ near as much as I am. When he is, he usually is helping pack.

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Maybe that's the nice thing about our DZ, it's pretty small...and we do all watch each other. I won't be able to tell you how your rear riser practice went under canopy, but I'd know where you landed and be able to sign off on your card for accuracy.

It's the same way at my DZ, but everyone is either packing, jumping with groups, instructing or doing something else. There are about 23 people landing at a time, which may be less or more than your DZ. That I don't know. It's just in my experience, especially with such a large LZ, you can't just ask the closest person to you to vouch for where you landed. I think they want us to announce our accuracy before doing it too, but who is going to watch for you? I don't want to bother people that are busy.

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f you ever jumped at Chambersburg, you'd be amazed how many people will notice you doing a solo and walk up and ask to jump with you.

People ask me all the time and there are plenty of people that have told me to just ask if I need someone to jump with. That's no problem. I can work on RW very easily. There is a shortage of people interested in high pulls though for doing canopy work.

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

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[popsjumper 2]

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...I can remember at 23, 24ish jumps you going out and doing some two ways with me and you drilled this into my head. Before every jump we talked about it and YOU made me walk funny and act like I was tracking... remember that? And I still do it on every jump to this day even now.

As old as I am, I still remember that, too.

I can now divulge the truth.
On top of the tracking info, it was an awful lot of fun watching you, and others, "walk funny".

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Bill_K 0]

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...I can remember at 23, 24ish jumps you going out and doing some two ways with me and you drilled this into my head. Before every jump we talked about it and YOU made me walk funny and act like I was tracking... remember that? And I still do it on every jump to this day even now.

As old as I am, I still remember that, too.

I can now divulge the truth.
On top of the tracking info, it was an awful lot of fun watching you, and others, "walk funny".

LOL, I'm sure it is. But you know what, it sure as hell works!!

[DSE 5]

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Maybe that's the nice thing about our DZ, it's pretty small, everyone knows everyone else, even low time jumpers, and we do all watch each other. I won't be able to tell you how your rear riser practice went under canopy, but I'd know where you landed and be able to sign off on your card for accuracy.

If you are doing 2 ways with a coach/more experienced jumper, it is a lot easier to get even more specific canopy feedback. If you ever jumped at Chambersburg, you'd be amazed how many people will notice you doing a solo and walk up and ask to jump with you.

Same at Skydive Utah. Someone (multiple) always watching the landing pattern for cutaways, adherance to the pattern, safe landings, and yes...it will be noted if you hit or are near the tuffet. Just ask, someone will video your landing. And while you're in the air...most of the folks will be able to tell you what you were doing when you hit the ground; recalling the skydive is fairly ingrained during training.
Our manifest always attempts to pair low number jumpers with someone experienced.
If you're not having these sorts of experiences at your DZ, you might want to look at another DZ.

[Bill_K 0]

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...There is a shortage of people interested in high pulls though for doing canopy work.

There is a highly experienced jumper at my DZ that has a saying that I love. Break off altitude is like an auction. The highest bid wins. I've been on many a 2,3, or 4 way where somebody has said something like, I just down sized, or just got my canopy relined or what ever and I need/want to pull at 5 or 6k. Guess what, we go out and rock the skydive and at 5 or 6k we break, track like hell and get on the ground usually all smiles and go do it again. There is nothing wrong with breaking a group high so that somebody can work on canopy stuff. Nothing at all!! Heck I've been that guy more than once that needed/wanted to break higher.

[Fast 0]

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That is a problem that I am noticing. Too many people seem to believe that people notice your skydive. They don't. Unless they were right there with you. I don't even have my B-license yet, because it's not easy to walk up to someone in the LZ when you land and say "did you see me land within 20m?". You're lucky if you find someone 1 in 100 times that did.

I dunno if that statement is fair. I think from your viewpoint that is probably true. The more experience you have the more things you will be able to pay attention to and notice. I watch other people under canopy all the time. I have a pretty good idea of who is doing what and who is doing well and who is not. I have come down from more than a few jumps and gave someone advice about how they could be doing things differently under canopy.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[chrismgtis 0]

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I dunno if that statement is fair. I think from your viewpoint that is probably true. The more experience you have the more things you will be able to pay attention to and notice.

Fair enough. I can't say from experience how aware I would be with 1K jumps.

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan