billvon 3,006 #1 November 8, 2004 At a bigway at Perris today, we had an aborted jump that illustrates some of the issues you can see when working with formation loads. A 32 way was planned, with most of the jumpers exiting from the Skyvan. An Otter was right trail. The weather was reasonable when we took off, but we passed a cloud layer building at around 5000 feet as we climbed to altitude. The organizer asked Debbie, the superfloater, to check the spot and the clouds before we exited. (The superfloater leaves early in the count from the back of the plane, so she was in a good position to check the spot.) She looked out the window as we were turning onto jump run, and there were clouds coming in but the DZ looked clear. At Perris, the pilots usually coordinate use of the exit lights - red light a few minutes out to open the door, green light for climb out. We planned to wait for green, give a ten-count to allow the trail plane to climb out, then launch the superfloater and the base. The trail plane can also see the door of the skyvan, which serves as a backup to the red light. On jump run we opened the door on the red light and took grips. Debbie took a look and said "we have solid clouds!" Dom and I leaned out and took a look as well; the edge of a cloud layer was now solidly covering the DZ. Bringing a 32 way through a cloud layer isn't a good idea, so I called up to the front that we had clouds and had to hold. Apparently the message did not make it to the pilots in time, because he gave us a green light. In the skyvan it didn't matter, because we knew we weren't going to launch, but in the otter people began the climbout. One jumper in the Otter was watching the skyvan and saw me shaking my head pretty violently, and she called for people to climb back in. All did except for the rear float, who couldn't pull herself back in and exited after about 10 seconds of trying. We descended below the clouds, did a low jump (just chunked the exit out and broke off immediately) and landed. The weather got progressively worse after that. It's not a good idea to jump through clouds under any conditions, but bigways are especially dangerous since approaching jumpers can collide with the base if they can't see it, and breakoff can be very difficult in a cloud if you can't clear your airspace. It's important to check. Once you do see that you can't jump, it's important to get word to other jumpers and the pilot quickly, especially if another aircraft is going to follow your lead on climbout. Usually you can abort even after climbout, but it's not the safest thing to do - and sometimes not everyone can climb back in. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #2 November 8, 2004 Another way we would normaly signal for a trail plane to climb out, after checking the spot, is to have the spotter lay on their belly and do a BIG wave with both arms to signal the spot has been checked and that the trail plane should start climbing out, visibly seen by the floater on the trail plane. Unfortunatly, sometimes radio communication doesn't get relayed to the rear of the plane fast enough, and this seems to have been the case in this instance. I hope the floater that had to let go, didn't have to worry about the plane that flew a low pass, on top of finding their way through the low cloud layer too? Be safe. Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #3 November 8, 2004 Good call Bill, the sky will be there another day. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
headoverheels 333 #4 November 8, 2004 Closing the Skyvan door would also have made it obvious that you were not going to exit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #5 November 8, 2004 So, did your cameraflyer ride the plane back down? ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,006 #6 November 8, 2004 >Another way we would normaly signal for a trail plane to climb out, >after checking the spot, is to have the spotter lay on their belly and >do a BIG wave with both arms to signal the spot has been checked >and that the trail plane should start climbing out, visibly seen by the >floater on the trail plane. We have used that as well, but generally as a backup to the green light. Its drawback is that it can't always be seen by left trail or far trail otters (a nearer otter may block the view of the lead plane for a few seconds.) But in this case it may have worked out as the primary signal, since there was only one trail. (headoverheels said) >Closing the Skyvan door would also have made it obvious that you >were not going to exit. True, but they were already climbing out by the time we decided that it was solid both where we were and where we were going to exit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #7 November 8, 2004 The responsibility for exiting the trail plane should have laid with the spotter on that plane. Would not someone on the trail plane also notice the there was solid cloud below? NO one should have climbed out with a solid cloud base over the DZYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyangel2 2 #8 November 8, 2004 Trusting your LO for the big ways is number one. If you don't trust them, then you shouldn't be jumping with them. I'm sure the trail plane floaters saw the cloud cover, and thought that the lead plane knew something they didn't. They went with the plane that was discussed before they took off. Once the plan changes, it is some times hard to communicate that to the other planes. That's why it's important that there should only be one person talking on the planes. It's when every one starts shouting out orders that it gets confusing. I have learned over the years, doing big ways, that I trust my LO. Bill, good call.May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #9 November 9, 2004 QuoteTrusting your LO for the big ways is number one. If you don't trust them, then you shouldn't be jumping with them. I'm sure the trail plane floaters saw the cloud cover, and thought that the lead plane knew something they didn't. They went with the plane that was discussed before they took off. Once the plan changes, it is some times hard to communicate that to the other planes. That's why it's important that there should only be one person talking on the planes. It's when every one starts shouting out orders that it gets confusing. I have learned over the years, doing big ways, that I trust my LO. Bill, good call. I agree but even so I would have thought that at least the trailing planes organiser would have checked if all was well (via radio) before climbing out, with such a closed in cloud cover? (Having said that I'm not a bigway jumper, and I'm only trying to work this with basic reasoning.)You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #10 November 9, 2004 Quote but even so I would have thought that at least the trailing planes organiser would have checked if all was well (via radio) before climbing out, with such a closed in cloud cover? That's just not the way it works. The plane captain of the trail plane isn't in radio contact with anyone. If you're lucky he's near the door and might be able to tell what's going on. The pilot of the trail plane isn't looking anywhere but at the lead plane. He's in radio contact, but if the lead tells him to turn on the green light -- he does so simply because he has no idea where he is. The lead plane is simply trying to maintain heading and speed to target and probably can't see down and in front of himself anyway. He's almost always just going off the GPS numbers and experience. The ONLY person in the lead airplane that usually has a good visual is whoever is spotting. In a tail gate airplane, the person has to lean over the edge and look under the airplane to see what's coming up. The only people in the RIGHT trail plane(s) with a good visual are the ones in the door, but they don't have control over anything except dire emergencies. The LEFT trail planes usually can't see too much of anything useful. With weather anything worse than scattered, on big-ways, I get really nervous. I'm usually the guy urging the organizer to stand down and the first to congratulate/thank him and the pilots when they do. I've occasionally spotted for some high-level organizer's big-ways and lemme tell ya, when the weather gets bad it's a really tough call. The pilot is basically flying a bomb run and you're the bombardier. He'll keep you on course to the target and give permission to exit (the green light). If the weather is good and the spot is reasonable, you pretty much just go. If the weather is crap (cloudy or very windy) they (the pilots and the organizer as well as everyone else) might just put the entire thing on your judgement.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gjhdiver 0 #11 November 9, 2004 QuoteI have learned over the years, doing big ways, that I trust my LO. Especially the good looking ones with pink shorts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #12 November 9, 2004 QuoteQuoteI have learned over the years, doing big ways, that I trust my LO. Especially the good looking ones with pink shorts. Would those be the same ones that give the climb-out order about 2 minutes too early?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #13 November 9, 2004 QuoteWould those be the same ones that give the climb-out order about 2 minutes too early? Thanks you you dear man, I was so going there......---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #14 November 9, 2004 QuoteQuoteWould those be the same ones that give the climb-out order about 2 minutes too early? Thanks you you dear man, I was so going there...... You're welcome. Still waiting for the "Build 1000 bridges...." comment!... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gjhdiver 0 #15 November 9, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteWould those be the same ones that give the climb-out order about 2 minutes too early? Thanks you you dear man, I was so going there...... You're welcome. Still waiting for the "Build 1000 bridges...." comment! I was merely allowing extra time for you two geriatrics to haul your aging carcasses out of the door. Didn't work, because you fell off you big fairy. I had to come with you to make sure that you were all right. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyangel2 2 #16 November 9, 2004 And since I was hold on to JP, once he fell off, I got sucked out with him. Big ways will always have some kind of entertainment.May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #17 November 9, 2004 QuoteI was merely allowing extra time for you two geriatrics to haul your aging carcasses out of the door. Did you call me "geriatric"? Riiiiiightt.....whatever you say Obi Won....---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smooth 0 #18 November 9, 2004 QuoteThe LEFT trail planes usually can't see too much of anything useful. Depends on how tall you are!?! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #19 November 9, 2004 QuoteQuoteThe LEFT trail planes usually can't see too much of anything useful. Depends on how tall you are!?! Actually depends on how much lower the trail plane is from the lead plane. I've been on a few formation loads where the floaters on the left trail couldn't even see the base plane, then someone looking out the window inside the trail plane's screaming "GO GO GO!!!!" Another time, I was front float on a right trail Otter with a Casa as the base plane. I could not even see the ramp on the Casa, it was totally hidden behind the Otter's wing. As luck would have it, I was still hanging there when the last divers were just leaving the Casa. Luckily I caught a glimpse from my peripheral vision to see the divers going by. I made it in, but it was a loooooong way down! Blue Skies Billy"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #20 November 9, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteWould those be the same ones that give the climb-out order about 2 minutes too early? Thanks you you dear man, I was so going there...... You're welcome. Still waiting for the "Build 1000 bridges...." comment! I was merely allowing extra time for you two geriatrics to haul your aging carcasses out of the door. Didn't work, because you fell off you big fairy. I had to come with you to make sure that you were all right. "... and they never call you 'architect'" At least we had the door open that time. I've been on two big ways where the trail plane door was still closed when the base whizzed by.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #21 November 10, 2004 I was talking about the spot. I maintain my position.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smooth 0 #22 November 10, 2004 BillyVance : bet ya got a nice swoop outta that one! quade : I like your bombardier analogy. Viewpoint understood on both replies. I was just being silly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
.thumb.jpg.4bb795e2eaf21b8b300039a5e1ec7f92.jpg)