Petition to support a BSR change to reduce canopy fatalities

[nbblood 0]

Bill,
I've got all that. I understand. But that's not what the petition says. It is very vague and offers no real potential solutions. I've seen all the dialogue that's gone on and seen some pretty good ideas. I've read Brian Germaine's article. But what is this petition really trying to get USPA to do? Come up with their own solution? Or is it proposing these ideas you speak of. My problem is with the petition itself and not the proposed solutions you speak of (that the petition doesn't speak of).

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>What this petition says to me is "we have a problem, fix it for me please".

Actually, the petition says "tell drop zones to fix their problems."

This is just passing the blame. What if the DZ says "our system works fine, it's other DZ's that have a problem", which you KNOW is going to happen at MOST DZs. But that's ok, because we can blame the DZ when an incident occurs for not following a BSR that says "establish safe landing areas". Yeah, no shit! Tell me something useful or don't tell me at all.

Again, unless there's something about this petition that I am missing.

Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

[nbblood 0]

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We are hearing a lot of WHINING about the BSR proposal, but I'd like to know if ANYONE thinks mixing high performance landings and normal pattern landings is a good, or even an acceptable, idea?

No, I don't think it's a good idea. I don't like the idea of putting my name to such a vague, and IMO, useless petition that doesn't have hope to solve the problem. If the petition offered a solution, I may or may not be in favor depending on what that may be. If scrutinizing a petition designed to cause action before I put my name to it is WHINING....so be it.

Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

[diablopilot 2]

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We are hearing a lot of WHINING about the BSR proposal, but I'd like to know if ANYONE thinks mixing high performance landings and normal pattern landings is a good, or even an acceptable, idea?

It is doable, safely even, but it takes the proper judgement of qualified pilots (both types).

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[kallend 2,027]

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We are hearing a lot of WHINING about the BSR proposal, but I'd like to know if ANYONE thinks mixing high performance landings and normal pattern landings is a good, or even an acceptable, idea?

No, I don't think it's a good idea. .

OK, so what IS your proposal to deal with a situation that you think is NOT a good idea.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,027]

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We are hearing a lot of WHINING about the BSR proposal, but I'd like to know if ANYONE thinks mixing high performance landings and normal pattern landings is a good, or even an acceptable, idea?

It is doable, safely even, but it takes the proper judgement of qualified pilots (both types).

And how is that condition to be satisfied 100% of the time?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[diablopilot 2]

You didn't ask that.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[hukturn 0]

Wait a minute...I just noticed something. This post reads "please reply to this post with your name and license number (or USPA number) and we will add your name to the petition."

You am not so sure that you can legally do that. To be a valid petition, I believe it requires entry by the person signing not by proxy since the petition itseld is a form of proxy. Many people on this site list their names and USPA numbers withe their personal information. Anyone could easily sign everyone up by simply looking through the members
For instance, if I wanted to petition USPA no oppose the proposed BSR, I could very easily sign up "bill von novak" and list his USPA number "D 16479" and he may never know it.

People are passionate about this topic and they may do ANYTHING. Hmmm...I think that you may want to consider another route. Where is your petition listed? I would like to review it.

[kallend 2,027]

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You didn't ask that.

I ask it now.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[FlipColmer 0]

Hello jp!

***No it wouldn't have. They were not jumping at a USPA DZ.***

I think you are making a bad assumption. USPA BSRs seem to be followed by the majority of USPA members irrespective of where they are jumping.

Just because I am at a boogie. at a non-USPA dz doesn't mean I pull at 1000 feet every jump just 'cause I can'.

After a bit of time, even non-USPA dzs and events will probably create their own landing plan or patterns. So given time, yes, this BSR would have prevented what happened with Bob and Danny.

Blue SKies, Flip

[hukturn 0]

http://www.petitiononline.com/bluesky/petition.html

I respect everone's opinion, even if things have gotten "heated". "Yes" I am passionate about this, just as some are passionate about the opposing arguement. Without this type of forum, we would not be able to extend our position to others. It seems that this discussion has taken several turns. So, I am not even sure where people stand on the issue. Here is a link to a petition to allow the DZ to handle the issue at a local level rather than implimenting a BSR.

http://www.petitiononline.com/bluesky/petition.html

[Para_Frog 1]

I'd sign a petition to blot out the sun if Kelland was against it. Has anyone calculated the hours those poor kids' tuition money has subsidized the endless banter?

It just happens that I concur with hukturn. I'm in.

This post will be recycled by Billvon in 3-2-1...

- Harvey, BASE 1232
TAN-I, IAD-I, S&TA

BLiNC Magazine Team Member

[nbblood 0]

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We are hearing a lot of WHINING about the BSR proposal, but I'd like to know if ANYONE thinks mixing high performance landings and normal pattern landings is a good, or even an acceptable, idea?

No, I don't think it's a good idea. .

OK, so what IS your proposal to deal with a situation that you think is NOT a good idea.

Well, MY proposal is let the DZs handle their specific issues and forget the BSR proposal as this one is stated.

However, I've seen many good ideas that I think are reasonable and well thought out proposals and I may be in favor of some specific recommendation should it be proposed. However, the petition as it reads now is not useful. DZs already recognize the problem and many are making adjustments. A BSR that simply says to separate landing areas is unlikely, IMO, to be effective at all. So why?

Again, if a recommendation that provided for different situations at different DZs were proposed, I may be in favor. However, right now I think let the DZs handle it. Apparently that's all the proposed BSR is saying anyway.

Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

[LyraM45 0]

got a late entry here, but you can add my name:

Ashley Helmetag
B-26378

Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

[rehmwa 2]

Step 1 - Indignation and blame - Who are you blaming, it's really everybody else, but not me or people that vaguely resemble the stuff I do. Make them change for me. I'm doing fine.

Step 2 - Misdirection and emotional escalation - You want to completely ban swooping forever and in all areas? Why do you hate children and old people?

Step 3 - Filibuster step 1 - It's too specific, you can't expect ALL the DZs to do that, some don't have enough area, some have special needs, some have big airplanes.....

Step 4 - Filibuster step 2- It's too vague, it doesn't solve the problem, it's just a feel good BSR that asks the DZs to fix the problem

Step 5 - Filibuster success - repeat 3 and 4 as necessary

Step 6 - Futility argument - Whatever, it won't make any difference anyway. Can't win, don't try.

Step 7 - Cliches and platitudes - EDUCATION!!!

Step 8 - Armchair lawyer and loopholes - Are you sure you can colllect signatures this way? We should consult the administrivia coordinator.

Step 9 - Shout down - YOU SUCK, HATERS, DOWN WITH HATE, UP WITH LOVE, LALALALALALALALALAICAN"THEARYOULALALALALALALALA

Step 10 - Million Man - picket lines at USPA

Congress would be proud.

(Of course, it's ok when I do it against the coach and PRO programs

Frankly, I'm in the excuse #6 camp that people will actively refuse to change due to belligerence or inertia and that many DZOs are as or more guilty than up jumpers so it won't be enforced, but I've yet to hear a better idea. So, if it gets passed, I'll try to comply just to see if it helps and hope for the best and that I am wrong and it does help. But I don't expect benefits overnight, but as newbies get trained under these expectations due them being standard and formal. At our DZs, we don't have boundaries of good/bad judgment based solely between disciplines, there are responsible PEOPLE, and irresponsible PEOPLE and we need to deal with them one person at a time.)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 2,027]

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I'd sign a petition to blot out the sun if Kelland was against it. Has anyone calculated the hours those poor kids' tuition money has subsidized the endless banter?

I don't get paid in the summer. The time is mine to use as I please.

Thank you for your post, it helps confirm my opinion that a BSR IS needed.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,027]

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We are hearing a lot of WHINING about the BSR proposal, but I'd like to know if ANYONE thinks mixing high performance landings and normal pattern landings is a good, or even an acceptable, idea?

No, I don't think it's a good idea. .

OK, so what IS your proposal to deal with a situation that you think is NOT a good idea.

Well, MY proposal is let the DZs handle their specific issues and forget the BSR proposal as this one is stated.

However, I've seen many good ideas that I think are reasonable and well thought out proposals and I may be in favor of some specific recommendation should it be proposed. However, the petition as it reads now is not useful. DZs already recognize the problem and many are making adjustments. A BSR that simply says to separate landing areas is unlikely, IMO, to be effective at all. So why?

Again, if a recommendation that provided for different situations at different DZs were proposed, I may be in favor. However, right now I think let the DZs handle it. Apparently that's all the proposed BSR is saying anyway.

So what would your "specific recommendation" be?

What about the DZ's that do nothing?

You seem to arguing that a BSR is too specific and too vague both at the same time.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

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I'd sign a petition to blot out the sun if Kelland was against it. Has anyone calculated the hours those poor kids' tuition money has subsidized the endless banter?

Nuts - On politics, yeah, he's nutty

but on skydiving? I think he's usually dead on.
as far as teaching, he takes physics seriously, those kids are being taught, not lectured on politics or skydiving.

Would you support his position on exit separation? It's the best position out there.

Would you support his position on the 45 degree rule?
He's 100% correct

As an old timer in the sport he's likely been trained on the wrong way to do things over and over again, and instead of letting himself get indoctrinated in those things, he's smart enough to recognize the BS coming from the misconceptions of the first few jumper generations and changed his views to match reality.

So I guess my vote would cancel yours every time if it was just based on Kallend voting on a jumping issue.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Para_Frog 1]

I did my first jump in 1991...and have remained active every since.

So...

That makes me an old timer by your standard, and yes, I too have witnessed dumbasses along the way - to include swoopers with blinders. I do not disagree with the end, just the means.

Our society is legislated to the point of paralysis. I like to dream the dream that skydivers can police themselves. It's worked at every DZ I 've jumped at.

You have both been around long enough to spot "that guy" before you even get on the plane. Forcefully explain to everyone that IF they intend to be a hotshot - they pitch high and land last. End of story. Never had anyone disagree. Just grow the balls to take control of the load.

Being a 200# asshole has its advantages. And might just keep someone safe.

The USPA doesn't need a bunch of empowerment-hungry yahoos getting another BSR. It goes back to the having an "organization" (careful semantic consideration to avoid another pointless political debate) do your thinking for you.

Even though I'm certain a BSR would instantly correct all dangerous behavior. Uh-huh.

And PLEASE - everyone just remember - (see attached photo).

...out

- Harvey, BASE 1232
TAN-I, IAD-I, S&TA

BLiNC Magazine Team Member

[rehmwa 2]

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You have both been around long enough to spot "that guy" before you even get on the plane.

"spot" that guy. Hell, I've won money on pools for when he injures himself. Despite our best efforts....

I wouldn't extend the proposal of a best practices BSR (Recommendation) to the erosion of national politics and the ever increasing control of non-skydiving aspects. I'd just discuss the merits of this one. and I'd still give Kallend props for skydiving judgment despite his socialistic leanings in other area.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Para_Frog 1]

Fair enough.

You effectively argued your point in fewer sentences than most. Brevity is the soul of wit.

Cheers

- Harvey, BASE 1232
TAN-I, IAD-I, S&TA

BLiNC Magazine Team Member

[mnealtx 0]

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I did my first jump in 1991...and have remained active every since.

So...

That makes me an old timer by your standard, and yes, I too have witnessed dumbasses along the way - to include swoopers with blinders. I do not disagree with the end, just the means.

Our society is legislated to the point of paralysis. I like to dream the dream that skydivers can police themselves. It's worked at every DZ I 've jumped at.

You have both been around long enough to spot "that guy" before you even get on the plane. Forcefully explain to everyone that IF they intend to be a hotshot - they pitch high and land last. End of story. Never had anyone disagree. Just grow the balls to take control of the load.

Being a 200# asshole has its advantages. And might just keep someone safe.

The USPA doesn't need a bunch of empowerment-hungry yahoos getting another BSR. It goes back to the having an "organization" (careful semantic consideration to avoid another pointless political debate) do your thinking for you.

Even though I'm certain a BSR would instantly correct all dangerous behavior. Uh-huh.

And PLEASE - everyone just remember - (see attached photo).

...out

Your "dream" has turned into a nightmare - skydivers are killing OTHER skydivers.

I suppose you think the low pull BSR wasn't needed either, and 'education' could change things?

Guess what - it didn't. Too many people died and something had to be done.

This is the same thing - it REQUIRES the DZ's to find a way to separate normal pattern landings and high performance landings - why are you so against this?

Spare me the "I have a dream" and "rebel without a clue" bullshit and TELL ME WHY YOU DONT CARE IF NOTHING IS DONE.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Para_Frog 1]

Dood...read.

It's all in the thread.

[troll]Pulling low is fun and hurts no one else as long as you aim for the open patches.

Oh! Oh!...and single-parachute systems work just fine at terminal if you learn how to pack properly.[/troll]

- Harvey, BASE 1232
TAN-I, IAD-I, S&TA

BLiNC Magazine Team Member

[mnealtx 0]

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Dood...read.

It's all in the thread.

[troll]Pulling low is fun and hurts no one else as long as you aim for the open patches.[/troll]

Yeah, I read the "I don't think USPA should be telling us what to do" bit... it still doesn't explain anything.

I want to know WHY are you against this proposal - an articulative reason, not some anti-authoritative bullcrap. A hard, concrete reason.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[billvon 2,998]

>It is very vague and offers no real potential solutions.

We've suggested some potential solutions in a different thread and in letters we've written to the BOD and to PARACHUTIST. But we don't want to go to USPA and say "do this because we know what's best for everyone!" We don't know more about canopy flight than Brian Germain, or more about dropzone operations than Bryan Burke. We are presenting the petition to start the process of finding a solution; USPA _should_ get input from far more people than our small group. We don't know everything - but we know we need to change the system we have now. Too many people are dying.

>What if the DZ says "our system works fine, it's other DZ's that have a
>problem", which you KNOW is going to happen at MOST DZs.

If they have a way to separate traffic, then great - that's what we're trying to accomplish. If they don't, then they have to come up with one.

>Tell me something useful or don't tell me at all.

I think that if people are expecting to be told what to do to be safe, then they will benefit from USPA coming out with a definitive rule on canopy patterns. I would encourage you to come to the July BOD meeting to give your input on this; the more input we get the better.

[Para_Frog 1]

Because it's a waste of paper...which is undoubtedly exacerbating global warming.

I'm all about the green.

When you come to my DZ(s), I promise the swoopers will be well behaved. Come one, come all.

- Harvey, BASE 1232
TAN-I, IAD-I, S&TA

BLiNC Magazine Team Member