Landed on Rear risers...good idea or no???

[RyanOBrian 0]

So Jump number 29 was amazing today up until I was under canopy. I pulled at 4000 and opened fine. But when I went to unstow my toggles my right toggles was tied in a knot around the guide ring. There was proboly about a foot of line between the knot and the toggle. I thought I could cut this away but let me try messing around with the rear risers a bit.So I did a steerabilty check with my rear risers and came to the descision that I can land it. I tried to get the knot undone but couldn't do it. When I got on my downwind I was pretty much out of strength on my left arm to keep using the risers.... I had to reach up with both hands to do my left turns for my base and final. For my flare I used the last of my strength and came and landed fine. It wasn't a standup landing, but I was on the ground safe.... The question is should I have just cut away rather than take that risk that I did?? Everyone at the DZ says I should have chopped... Of course I listened to them and learned alot from it. But am looking for some more input. Thanks


EDIT: I was flying a Sabre 190

[freeflyin84 0]

you're a dummy. shoulda, coulda, woulda cut away, but u didn't. u scared Richard, and that should definatley make u think a moment or two next time. good job on walking away, but if you can't steer with the toggles, screw it and cut away. why risk it. granted it could be the day the reserve doesn't like you, but a good gust of wind coulda had you all weird coming in on your risers. nice job landing it

[JohnMitchell 16]

You can steer with your one good toggle, making all your turn in that direction or simply controlling the turns in the direction of the tied off toggle. Then hold it down to match the other side to fly straight.

Another strategy I've used is this. Hold the good toggle in your teeth to make the canopy fly straight while you use both hands to untie the other one. If you can't fix it, chop at a safe altitude or do a controllability check and land it.

A tied off toggle seems to be a situation that won't deteriorate over time, such as a knotted, hung up slider does sometimes. It sounds like one of the safer situations to land, but be careful. Your student canopies tend to be very forgiving. Higher wing loadings will demand more caution.

Don't ever forget how to PLF.

[MarkM 0]

Hard to second guess the situation when you're not there yourself looking up at that tension knot, but landing on rear risers shouldn't be a big deal.

Bottom line is your life, your call, you get to live with the results. Think over their arguements against you landing that way and make up your own mind how you'll do it again in the future.

[MagicGuy 0]

It's funny that the people at your DZ said you should've chopped. I've seen other people in the same situation come on here, that DID chop, and said that everyone at their DZ said they should've landed on rears.

Landing on rears isn't a bad thing to have done. It may be something you have to do one day. Maybe at your jump numbers most people would say chop it, but you did what you did and landed safe. Good job on dealing with it.

[stratostar 5]

Quote

Everyone at the DZ says I should have chopped...

I think you should tell "everyone" to fuck off! It's not their ass hanging in the saddle now is it. From the sounds of it you did as your were trained to do, you did a control check and felt you could land it, and what do ya know, ya did and did well.

It's real easy for those who are safe and sound on the ground to monday morning Qb it, what a joke. Once under a canopy with an issue you only have to answer to you and god!

Sounds like you kept your cool and calm, cool and collected will prevail over panic actions everytime and may make the defference between living and dying that day.

I see you were under a sabre 190, you can lift your one leg up and push down with the other and make the canopy turn, while it may not be as fast as a toggle or riser, it is a good way to rest your arms and still be able to control your direction. Ask an instructor about how to slide your leg straps down once under canopy to improve harness turns.

There are eight control imputs on a parachute, unless it's a crew canopy then there might be 10.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[waltappel 1]

It's an either/or situation. You landed safely so you made a decent decision. The thing about rear riser flares is that there is *much* less travel between full flight and stall than you have while steering with toggles. It would be easy to flare too high.

As I said, though, you landed safely so you did ok.

Congratulations!
Walt

[jjiimmyyt 0]

Quote

you're a dummy. shoulda, coulda, woulda cut away, but u didn't. u scared Richard, and that should definatley make u think a moment or two next time. good job on walking away, but if you can't steer with the toggles, screw it and cut away. why risk it. granted it could be the day the reserve doesn't like you, but a good gust of wind coulda had you all weird coming in on your risers. nice job landing it

Look, even if you are joking leave comments like that out of here. This is a serious discussion and should be left to people with experience/qualification to comment. How would you feel if someone chopped a perfectly landable canopy then had a mal on their reserve? It has happened. Idiotic comments like yours are not needed.

"This isn't an iron lung, people. You can actually disconnect and not die." -Dave

[woodpecker 0]

I say "great job", you saw a situation, didnt panic, and found another purfect reliable way to drive your canopy safely to the ground.......if I was there I would have bought you a beer.

Hell, I drive with my rears even when my toggles arent stuck, but next time, remember some of the advice you received on this thread. To ease up on your arms, you can just put the unstowed toggle in brakes till the canopy starts flying straight, and you can also use the stowed toggle to turn instead of wearing yourself out hanging onto the rears the whole time.

All in all, I say WELL DONE!

and Strato -- excellent response!

SONIC WOODY #146

There is a fine line between cockiness and confidence -- which side of the line are you on?

[CSpenceFLY 1]

My advice is don't take advice from people with 26 jumps. I have landed 2 canopies with broken steering lines with the rear risers. As someone else posted I hope the post from the 26 jump wonder is a joke.

[woodpecker 0]

Good point spence, and looking at all who responded, he's the only person who said "you fucked up", well not in those words of course.

Where you headed next so I can drag the other Scottish Billy with me?

SONIC WOODY #146

There is a fine line between cockiness and confidence -- which side of the line are you on?

[skinnyshrek 0]

Quote

My advice is don't take advice from people with 26 jumps. I have landed 2 canopies with broken steering lines with the rear risers. As someone else posted I hope the post from the 26 jump wonder is a joke.

Yeah but some of these sub 100 wonders have lots of advice, just check the swooping forum I prefer the ones that see your canopy from the ground and say . man you shouldn't of chopped that, i would of landed it.

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[CSpenceFLY 1]

To that I say,"Let me pack for you and you can give it a shot."

[CSpenceFLY 1]

Quote

Good point spence, and looking at all who responded, he's the only person who said "you fucked up", well not in those words of course.

Where you headed next so I can drag the other Scottish Billy with me?

I'll be in Chambersburg the weekend of July 14th for the Pelthead boogie.

[skinnyshrek 0]

Quote

To that I say,"Let me pack for you and you can give it a shot."

I have seen what your pack jobs end up like. I think the one in lake wales i could of landed that

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[CSpenceFLY 1]

Your a big help. You didn't even know I had chopped till we landed. That was one of my better pack jobs.

[skinnyshrek 0]

Quote

Your a big help. You didn't even know I had chopped till we landed. That was one of my better pack jobs.

body position

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[riggerrob 643]

You made a decision and you walked away from the landing.
Now go tell your critics to "F%$#@ off!"

Seriously, flaring a large, lightly-loaded canopy - with rear risers - should be no big deal.
I used to do that - on a regular basis - with my Cruiselite 220.
Just remember to practice rear riser flares up high, well above (i.e. above 1,000 feet) the regular traffic pattern. By 2,000 feet, you should know whether you have the muscle and skill to land with rear risers.

Heck! I even encourage my PFF students to practice rear riser flares before graduation!

Note that it is the hundred jump wonders who criticize you the most harshly.

If you carefully observe the best pond swoopers, you will see them doing the first 2/3 of their flare with rear risers, and only transitioning to toggles late in the flare process. Keep in mind that is an advanced technique that will take you hundreds of jumps to master.
Oh!
And every one of those "swoop masters" has mis-timed a rear riser flare a few times, eaten some grass, listened to his buddies laugh, etc.

Bottom line is: you made a decision and walked away from the landing.

[Dangerousmind86 0]

Quote

My advice is don't take advice from people with 26 jumps. I have landed 2 canopies with broken steering lines with the rear risers. As someone else posted I hope the post from the 26 jump wonder is a joke.

I may have just 26 jumps also but i agree with Cspence, I broke both of my brake lines on jump 22 or 23 and landed just fine on my rears. on jump 11 I had a right brake toggle tension knotted to the riser as well. I landed that safely also. I was pulling at 4.5k though so I had some time. People say pull reserve some don't. Do what you do. But think first!

What do I know.... I'm a newb!

ANDY

[SkyDivinRyan 0]

dud if the canopy in flying never cut that shit a way bro Id land on rears ne day ofr chopping ask the instuctors buddy

[RyanOBrian 0]

Well thanks everyone for your help. I'm glad I didn't cut away. I made the descision and it worked..... And thanks John Mitchell... I don't know why it didn't even cross my mind but I totally could have used my left toggle to do my base and final turns... I guess w/ the adrenaline I didn't even think of that. And I also like the idea to put the good toggle in my teeth. That might have worked as well. Well live and learn@

[freeflyin84 0]

good points guys, all of you. i forgot to mention that i'm his roomate and we went through AFF together. i was just giving him a hard time, but he knows i was a little scared for him. didn't mean to start a little argument here, as it is a discussion forum. ji actually didn't really know what the recommended advice would be on this topic, so i've learned from his experience as well...thanks

[ryoder 1,590]

I heard this story secondhand:

A group of jumpers was watching from the ground as a guy had a malfunction. The canopy was fully inflated, but spiraling. After a few moments, he cutaway and went to his reserve.

The reserve opened with a line-over in a hard spin. As they watched him struggling to stop the spin, one grizzled old veteran was heard to drawl:

"I'll bet right about now, he's a'wishin' he had his main back."

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[jjiimmyyt 0]

Quote

I heard this story secondhand:

A group of jumpers was watching from the ground as a guy had a malfunction. The canopy was fully inflated, but spiraling. After a few moments, he cutaway and went to his reserve.

The reserve opened with a line-over in a hard spin. As they watched him struggling to stop the spin, one grizzled old veteran was heard to drawl:

"I'll bet right about now, he's a'wishin' he had his main back."

And that is the reason why you should have a knife with you.

Hey, I've got a hundred jumps or so, I know all the shit

"This isn't an iron lung, people. You can actually disconnect and not die." -Dave

[popsjumper 2]

I land rear risers for fun and practice.

Spent over 150 jumps practicing lower and lower until thought I could do it. Did it and continue doing for fun and practice...it may come in very handy someday when actually needed. I sometimes do it with one brake stowed and one released...for fun and practice.

One important piece of information you need before you try it or actually have to do it is the rear-riser stall point. Find out where it is and do not exceed it on landing.

Sounds like you got it done with out finding that out the hard way.
Congrats.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239