Should 6 Year Olds Do Tandems? (Was: 15-year-old needs tandem)

[georgerussia 0]

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Kung fu gives exercise, mental discipline, and so forth.

Like skydiving. And like skydiving, you can get much more exercises in other activities, which are safer.

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I would guess that given all the right conditions kung fu is very safe for young students.

What do you mean by "right conditions" - no full-contact sparring? Still a child could break the neck by doing a cartwheel.

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Given perfect conditions skydiving can still kill you dead.

Nope. If all the conditions are perfect, you cannot be dead. The problem is that it is completely impossible to get perfect conditions. Humans aren't perfect, airplanes aren't, rigs aren't, weather isn't.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[georgerussia 0]

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Because lacking a better method

So basically the method itself has no relationship with maturity and ability to make smart decision, and was just a point picked because "you have to have some number to start with".

That's exactly what I was trying to tell my opponent: using the age as indicator to the ability to make responsible decisions is not reliable.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[kelpdiver 2]

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Because lacking a better method

So basically the method itself has no relationship with maturity and ability to make smart decision, and was just a point picked because "you have to have some number to start with".

That's exactly what I was trying to tell my opponent: using the age as indicator to the ability to make responsible decisions is not reliable.

No, as I wrote, it was picked because it is the age people graduate high school and start leaving home. It's also a couple years after the last of the major development cycles for adolescents.

If you were picking on physical development, you might be able to go to 16 for boys, perhaps as low as 14 for girls. But mentally...those 16 yo's are walking dice - anything can happen.

So...what's your alternative?

[dragon2 2]

Hell forget about the kids, we even teach PUPPIES how to skydive here

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[phoenixlpr 0]

Nice photoshopped work!

[Jumpah 0]

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Go enforce your own rules, and leave those who are not breaking any of their laws alone

Here here! As a citizen of the great state of New Hampshire I can appreciate that.

[PWScottIV 0]

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I agree. But what about kung fu class?

Kung fu gives exercise, mental discipline, and so forth. I would guess that given all the right conditions kung fu is very safe for young students.

Given perfect conditions skydiving can still kill you dead.

Apparently drinking too much water can kill you dead too. We should ban it... Especially for children.

Gravity Waits for No One.

[dragon2 2]

Thanx

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[billbooth 10]

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Because a 6 year old does not yet have the capacity to realistically appreciate and analyze the risk, and make an informed decision based upon that analysis.

I still do not see the point.
A 6 year old is also unable to appreciate and analyze the risk of riding his parents car - and the number of car-related fatalities is high. I'm not even talking about activities like riding a bike, going to kung-fu class, or even swimming in the backyard pool.

Another problem is that every parent has to make decisions for their children. Some of those decisions are fatal, and almost every child injury or death _could_ be viewed as parents negligence. Like if a kid was shot in school, the parents could be accused of neglecting to work harder, so they could earn more and live in better neighborhood with better schools, where the kids weren't shot. Should it be a felony as well? If no, how could you make a difference?

The real point here has nothing to do with safety. There is simply NO insurance available for drop zones and gear manufacturers. The only thing that keeps us in business, and therefore YOU skydiving, is assumption of risk agreements (waivers). Children (under 18 in most states) cannot sign contracts. No waivers, no more DZ's, no more gear manufacturers, no more jumping. It's that simple.

[chrismgtis 0]

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That's just your experience. I have seen a lot of 14yo who were able to make reasonable decisions, and I have seen a lot of 20+yo who were not. Using age as one's ability to make smart decisions is the same as using "time in sport" to measure skydiving experience - it could work in general, but might be not applicable to a speficic person.

Though the fact is it's pretty asinine to argue this, considering what the FAA, USPA and United States or other government laws say does and does not go. And as far as US law dictates, if you're not 18, you're not capable of making certain decisions.

That is all that matters, because when a 6 year old kid dies on a skydive (it may never happen, but it's possible), lawmakers won't give a damn if it was on a USPA dropzone or out of some friends Cessna. They will come after USPA licensed skydivers and USPA dropzones. They won't blame us exactly, no. But the shit they stir up is what is going to hurt us.

If a 6 year old kid steals a hand gun out of his father's closet and kills himself or another person, who suffers? Gun owners who legally own and are licensed to have weapons. Unless their lucky and the usual bitchers don't get their way.

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

[chrismgtis 0]

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One way to look at it, in the USA anyway . . .

If you are driving a car and your passenger child is killed in a garden variety accident it's just sad.

If you are doing a tandem and your passenger child is killed in a garden variety accident, your ass, or the memory of your ass, is grass . . .

You're right and yea it's bullshit, but it's the way it is unfortunately. It sucks that we need to take it in the ass and play along with unbalanced laws to be able to take part in our recreational sport.

Personally I have no real problem with kids jumping. It's the fact that if anything happened to that child theres a good chance it could really hurt other jumpers privilege to jump themselves, at least with as much freedom as we have currently.

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So basically the method itself has no relationship with maturity and ability to make smart decision, and was just a point picked because "you have to have some number to start with".

Yea, but thats the way it is. If you don't like the point the law recognizes as "mature enough to make smart decisions" then get it changed. Right now we don't have a choice, we have to go by that age.

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

[udder 0]

What we really need is to encourage kids jumping. Getting an Under 12 four way league happening. Its no worse than junior moto-x. Get them reduced tickets, since you can fit a few more on the plane at once. I think alot of them would cope fine. Mullins kids are an exmaple. And just think, you could have an entire underage packing team who pack to jump. At $3 a packjob

"In one way or the other, I'm a bad brother. Word to the motherf**ker." Eazy-E

[phoenixlpr 0]

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What we really need is to encourage kids jumping. Getting an Under 12 four way league happening. Its no worse than junior moto-x. Get them reduced tickets, since you can fit a few more on the plane at once. I think alot of them would cope fine. Mullins kids are an exmaple. And just think, you could have an entire underage packing team who pack to jump. At $3 a packjob

Kids should stay kids. No alcohol, smoking, drugs or even skydiving.

[udder 0]

dude, always remeber that what you say is YOUR OPINION. Some people think TV should be banned and Christians wiped out.(please dont send me to SC) I class you along with those type of people.

"In one way or the other, I'm a bad brother. Word to the motherf**ker." Eazy-E

[phoenixlpr 0]

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dude, always remeber that what you say is YOUR OPINION. Some people think TV should be banned and Christians wiped out.(please dont send me to SC) I class you along with those type of people.

??? So what? Are you about to give me a lesson about what?

[udder 0]

You didnt understand what I said. I was trying to convey that I dont value your opinion.

"In one way or the other, I'm a bad brother. Word to the motherf**ker." Eazy-E

[kirkverner 0]

Skydiving is a sport of choice. The human brain generally can't reason until about the age of 10. Most children think that they are immortal, not realizing that they can die. You should not be jumping out of an aircraft if you havent considered that you may die on every jump. You need to make this decision for yourself, not just doing it because mommy or daddy think its cool.

ParacleteXP

[chrismgtis 0]

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What we really need is to encourage kids jumping. Getting an Under 12 four way league happening. Its no worse than junior moto-x.

The FAA or some other organization doesn't threaten to shut motorcross down when a kid breaks his neck riding.

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

[toronto_bill 0]

True, kids are allowed to do motocross, but it doesn't come close to justifying kids skydiving.

By the same logic kids should be able to drive on the streets, drink and play with guns whenever they want.

My point is that kids and motocross isn't the best thing. So maybe that should be changed instead of going the other way.

Bill

[Andy9o8 2]

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Skydiving is a sport of choice. The human brain generally can't reason until about the age of 10. Most children think that they are immortal, not realizing that they can die. You should not be jumping out of an aircraft if you havent considered that you may die on every jump. You need to make this decision for yourself, not just doing it because mommy or daddy think its cool.

What he said.

[airtwardo 7]

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not just doing it because mommy or daddy think its cool.

And I can attest, as a guy that use to sleep on your Dad's living room floor every weekend when you were a kid...YOU never thought it was cool!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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My point is that kids and motocross isn't the best thing. So maybe that should be changed instead of going the other way.

Bill

Bullshit! Motocross keeps kids busy and engaged. How many kids get their life ruined by motocross? If you took that away how many would not find something else constructive and ruin their lives with drugs?
Demanding that kids live risk free lives is not the answer.
Encouraging them to hang around the DZ may not keep them off drugs either though.

[dropoutdave 0]

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My point is that kids and motocross isn't the best thing. So maybe that should be changed instead of going the other way.

Please please please never do anything to follow this thought process up.

Kids are already bubble wrapped enough without more of that kind of shit. Let em break a few bones, it's character building. Teaches em to do it right next time.

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May Contain Nut traces......

[Lindsey 0]

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Skydiving is a sport of choice. The human brain generally can't reason until about the age of 10. Most children think that they are immortal, not realizing that they can die. You should not be jumping out of an aircraft if you havent considered that you may die on every jump. You need to make this decision for yourself, not just doing it because mommy or daddy think its cool.

My ex has been wanting to take my 10 y/o tandem for a couple years. I've told Jay, "Absolutely not." I think Jesse (the ex) wants a mini me....or mini him. But now Jay talks about it all the time. He REALLY wants to go. So, against my best judgment, I've told him that when he can fit into the harness he can go. It would be a neat thing for him and his dad to do together. My worries are that Jesse's gonna want to buy him a rig, teach him to skydive. I'm coming around to being okay with the tandem though.

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[strop45 0]

In New Zealand, parents/guardians can and do signs waivers for under 18-yr olds. I won't have let my six year skydive, but don't have any problem with the idea.

Some say children get no benefit from this type of activity, but I wonder? Sure they may not appreciate the risks but activities like skiing, skydiving, mountain climbing, motorbiking can all contribute in a positive way towards the development of a well rounded and confident adult. Doing something different to the rest of the crowd can help in building self-esteem. Isn't that part of the of the attraction of skydiving, and doesn't it apply to adults and children?

The following isn't skydiving, but involves more risk (and reward) than watching TV.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/nelsonmail/4040299a6007.html

Four-year-old Archer Irving seemed unperturbed as she hung hundreds of metres above Richmond, seemingly unaware that she was likely to be soaring her way into the record books.

But it was another story for self-confessed overprotective mother Beck Irving of Nelson, who watched her daughter shoot high above the Barnicoat Range this month to become what is believed to be New Zealand's youngest hang-glider passenger.

"It wasn't until that point I thought, `oh God' - the nervous mother kicked in."

Archer's fascination with the sport began when she started noticing hang-gliders above the Barnicoat Range over a year ago.

At Christmas, when they went up to watch some take-offs, the pestering began.

"Like most mothers, I respond well to pestering."

Ms Irving trusted the pilot "100 percent" but she was concerned that Archer might change her mind about the flight, once airborne.

For Archer, the only mishap was shown on a DVD of the flight. As they neared the ground her nose started running and she was caught looking for somewhere to wipe her hand.

Apart from that minor technicality, she remembered seeing Stoke, Richmond, a park, swings and cows during the 12?-minute flight that soared close to 1000m.

"I felt like I was a bird," she told her mother after the flight. "I wasn't scared, Mum. Now it's your turn."

Nelson Hang Gliding Adventures instructor Glenn Meadows, who took Archer up on the tandem flight, believed she was the youngest New Zealander to try the sport.

He knew of some Queenstown hang-gliders who had taken 4?-year-olds up but Archer was younger still, he said.

Mr Meadows, a veteran of more than 1000 flights, described her as "the most relaxed passenger I have ever had".

"She was totally letting go and waving her arms around."

Inspired by Archer's flight, another parent had asked Mr Meadows to take her four-year-old daughter up, but she was too small for the harness, he said.

New Zealand Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association administrator Barbara Rooke said she wasn't aware of anyone younger than Archer hang-gliding in New Zealand.

Civil Aviation Authority spokesman Bill Summer said age rules only applied to pilots and there were no limits about what age hang-gliding passengers had to be, as long as they were securely harnessed.

"There doesn't seem to be a problem here."

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein