No Wind Days!!

[Rick 67]

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When I rotated my toggles in my hands so that i shortened the brake lines in that way (10 cm or so / 3 inches) i had no more trouble landing.

What may work for you may not work for others. Flying slow by wrapping your toggles isn't the smartest thing to be doing. Go back and read what Walt was talking about concerning forward speed and lift. I don't agree 100% with what he says, but I do agree with the majority of his comments. Personally I wouldn't be advising people to change the control range of their canopy. But that's me ...

I do not know how many jumps are on the canopy the op is flying but if taking a wrap on the toggles helps it may be time for a new line set

I know I was having some issues with my spectre ie: wierd openings and weak flares when I got my next re-pack my rigger infomed me my lines were out of trim and a new line set really made a big difference don't know if that is the case but there's my 2 cents

You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

[Steve_Lewis 0]

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One poster noted that on his Sabre 2, he can flare and go back up quite easily. That's true for many of today's canopies. Doing so is not a good flare, though.

Absolutely - it uses most of my flare for not much breaking of the forward speed, and has the de-merit of taking me back up where I was trying to get down from!

What I was trying to say though, is that going BANG straight to 95% breaks isn't going to plane out my Sabre2 (and would result in an awful landing), but would plane out a triathlon (I think - never flown them, but was on a canopy course with someone who was and that was the impression) so obviously different canopies (especially a 9 cell ZP to a 7 cell F111 comparison) would land very differently.

However, barring changes in relative winds (e.g. turbulence or gusting), the technique that you use to land your canopy is the same: someone said - same tensions etc. Until your feet touch the floor, be that running/sliding off a downwinder or standing still on an into wind, landing is almost identical.

You can't say "do a 2-stage on a nil-winder and a slow half flare on a windy day" firstly: because your canopy is flying almost exactly the same in both occasions (it just happens that the ground is moving faster on one occasion than the other), and secondly: because your technique will change depending upon what type of canopy you're flying and all the other person to person variables.

[waltappel 1]

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Thank you Walt! That explanation really helped. I am eager to try out the stuff now on a no-wind day. Which is tomorrow!!! Like you mentioned - I am able to reduce my rate of descent but the forward speed at full flare scares the crap out me. I have also gathered the following advice from fellow jumpers at the DZ

1. Flare, rock back in your harness and butt slide using heels
2. Do a punch flare as compared to a staged flare but do it a wee little later than you would normally do a staged flare
3. Try finding the sweet spot up high and apply that down below

And for the other poster who asked what the bump bump thing was - it was meant to convey the way I skimmed, slid and tumbled across the ground last saturday.

Before you try that stuff, be sure to talk with an experienced jumper who jumps the same kind of canopy you have and at about the same loading.

The punch flare you mentioned probably refers to the first stage of a two-stage flare and it does indeed work well on many canopies but it is the *first* stage of a two-stage flare.

As another poster said, when you are up high, make sure you can stall your canopy. If you have not done stalls before, talk with an instructor and get briefed on stalls and stall recovery.

Most importantly, learn how your canopy responds when you flare and have confidence that it will respond that way every time--at the same elevation.

Be sure and let us know how it works out!

Walt

[rehmwa 2]

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I am interested in hearing what techniques you use to slow down and get a tip-toe landing on no-wind day.

I finish my flare.

Yep. That's the answer.

Yup, all the way to the bottom.

It's fun, on no wind days, to watch people with 1000's of jumps and 'high speed' canopies flare to their shoulders and then run their asses off.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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Flying slow by wrapping your toggles isn't the smartest thing to be doing.

I agree for the newer canopies today. In fact, my Stiletto has quite a bit of bow in the steering lines at full flight and my landings are better (even if the bottom of my flare with the toggles all the way down to full arm extension is less now). I have more energy to work with and a good finish is better than mucking with wraps and line trim, anyday.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Be prepared to run your landings out. I find that having one foot ahead of the other helps. Also, once you find that sweet spot, I.E. the perfect flare, you can just slide your feet across the grass for yards... and not fall down.

If the grass has been mowed recently enough, there are no gopher holes, divots from other skydivers....

It really friggen hurts when you snag something.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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you can just slide your feet across the grass for yards... and not fall down.

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If the grass has been mowed recently enough, there are no gopher holes, divots from other skydivers....

It really friggen hurts when you snag something.

LOL ... all fine and dandy for Eloy's golf course like main landing area, but yes he hasn't jumped at Mile-Hi has he Drew. The only time you can even think of turf sliding at Mile-Hi is during a wet winter day. But what does this have to do with no wind landings.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[freeflyit 0]

This just happened on my last jump last weekend. I rented a 288 manta and was doing what accuracy jumpers do: pull down on their toggeles so to travel straight (or at least straighter) down because I was going to over-shoot and slam right into the building. I've never done this without any wind. So What you're supposed to do is just "let it fly"- meaning put the toggles all the way up so as to inflate the canopy for about 4 seconds before flaring. Anyways, I put them up too late (due to the no wind factor) and literally came in on the bottom of my heels and my hands just sliding across the ground with my back almost touching the ground. Man I came in fast and I seriously almost hurt myself pretty nicely... but I learned a good lesson. So I just wanted to share that because it's related to what this thread is about.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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As another poster said, when you are up high, make sure you can stall your canopy. If you have not done stalls before, talk with an instructor and get briefed on stalls and stall recovery.

Your canopy stalls when its angle becomes too great compared to the relative wind.

When you apply brakes to the canopy it slows down, you continue moving forwards due to Newton's first law of motion, and the whole system rotates increasing the angle of attack. More abrupt toggle inputs magnify the effect, getting the canopy to stall with less total control input than if you gradually applied brake input which just changes trim and wing shape.

Since landing requires you to achieve a zero descent rate while the gradual-input approach to stalling a canopy still has it descending (albeit slower), you can't use it on landing and being unable to slowly reach the stall point is not relevant to being able to get a decent landing.

You probably want to be able to stall at the rate you apply control input when landing.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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This just happened on my last jump last weekend. I rented a 288 manta and was doing what accuracy jumpers do: pull down on their toggeles so to travel straight (or at least straighter) down because I was going to over-shoot and slam right into the building. I've never done this without any wind. So What you're supposed to do is just "let it fly"- meaning put the toggles all the way up so as to inflate the canopy for about 4 seconds before flaring.

While they tell students to "let it fly" prior to landing and that gives you more energy to work with which makes flare timing less critical, it's not necessary and will eventually get you in trouble. It took me over 1000 jumps to realize that.

The last 100' of a traditional accuracy approach is flown in 3/4 brakes with no return to full flight. You actually get to 100% brakes before touching down.

Although I wouldn't want to land a small canopy in a sink, you can definately approach with a lot of brakes under a small (like 105 square feet) canopy and still get an acceptable flare.

And a 288 is a large canopy.

The other thing you want to note is that the effect of brake input on glide ratio varies with canopy type. Big F111 seven cells start loosing glide ratio with some brake input and are probably down to 1:1 by the time you hit 2/3 brakes; small ellipticals have a glide ratio increase with some brakes and some keep it until they're approaching a stall.

If you're going to run into a building you may be better off doing a flat turn to avoid it.

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Anyways, I put them up too late (due to the no wind factor) and literally came in on the bottom of my heels and my hands just sliding across the ground with my back almost touching the ground.

You'd have been better off just keeping the brakes where they were and finishing your flare because raising them causes the canopy to surge forward, increasing its decent rate, and putting you behind the canopy where flaring will have a reduced and delayed effect.

With a bigger canopy you'll probably even land softly. At 210 pounds out the door with my J7 and 245 I'm loaded heavier than I'd like for accuracy, but still get comfortable landings in a sink. With a smaller canopy, accepting the lower airspeed and planning to PLF will suck less than going faster and still being unable to get a good flare.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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LOL ... all fine and dandy for Eloy's golf course like main landing area, but yes he hasn't jumped at Mile-Hi has he Drew. The only time you can even think of turf sliding at Mile-Hi is during a wet winter day. But what does this have to do with no wind landings.

You expect prarie dog burrows in Colorado and no problems in Eloy. Unfortunately, while the landing area is golf-course like skydivers don't replace their divots. I've crashed there while not expecting too.

Sliiide....oof.

[Jewels 0]

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You expect prarie dog burrows in Colorado and no problems in Eloy. Unfortunately, while the landing area is golf-course like skydivers don't replace their divots. I've crashed there while not expecting too.

Sliiide....oof.

Those prairie dog holes are responsible for more than one broken bone--ouch! Just ask squarecanopy about that.

TPM Sister #102

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[mnealtx 0]

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While they tell students to "let it fly" prior to landing and that gives you more energy to work with which makes flare timing less critical, it's not necessary and will eventually get you in trouble. It took me over 1000 jumps to realize that.

Could you expand on this? Because Brian Germain (in his book), Scott Miller (canopy course) and several instructors that I've spoken to say the exact opposite... "full glide until you're ready to flare"

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[sundevil777 102]

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While they tell students to "let it fly" prior to landing and that gives you more energy to work with which makes flare timing less critical, it's not necessary and will eventually get you in trouble. It took me over 1000 jumps to realize that.

Could you expand on this? Because Brian Germain (in his book), Scott Miller (canopy course) and several instructors that I've spoken to say the exact opposite... "full glide until you're ready to flare"

Sometimes accuracy is very important to prevent hitting something. Sometime you find yourself needing to be very precise, even possibly needing to sink your canopy down vertically due to the need to avoid trees and power lines or whatever that surround your only good landing spot.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[mnealtx 0]

Ah, ok...my mistake - I thought he was talking about normal landings

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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While they tell students to "let it fly" prior to landing and that gives you more energy to work with which makes flare timing less critical, it's not necessary and will eventually get you in trouble. It took me over 1000 jumps to realize that.

Could you expand on this? Because Brian Germain (in his book), Scott Miller (canopy course) and several instructors that I've spoken to say the exact opposite... "full glide until you're ready to flare"

Sometimes accuracy is very important to prevent hitting something. Sometime you find yourself needing to be very precise, even possibly needing to sink your canopy down vertically due to the need to avoid trees and power lines or whatever that surround your only good landing spot.

Or just end up too low to return to full-flight, because you made a low turn, waited in brakes for a golf cart to go by which decided to park where you were going to swoop, etc.

It will happen.

[DSE 5]

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Or just end up too low to return to full-flight, because you made a low turn, waited in brakes for a golf cart to go by which decided to park where you were going to swoop, etc.

It will happen.

It did happen. To me, two days ago. Bruised the hell outta my right heel, and I felt like a heel for having held in brakes too low to return to full flight.
Was very grateful for PLF training, particularly on asphalt.

[billvon 2,995]

>Or just end up too low to return to full-flight . . .

That is indeed an issue. However, landing in brakes and doing a decent PLF will likely result in fewer injuries than hitting said golf cart at full flight. When worse comes to worst, slower is better.

[jheadley 0]

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While they tell students to "let it fly" prior to landing and that gives you more energy to work with which makes flare timing less critical, it's not necessary and will eventually get you in trouble. It took me over 1000 jumps to realize that.

Could you expand on this? Because Brian Germain (in his book), Scott Miller (canopy course) and several instructors that I've spoken to say the exact opposite... "full glide until you're ready to flare"

Sometimes accuracy is very important to prevent hitting something. Sometime you find yourself needing to be very precise, even possibly needing to sink your canopy down vertically due to the need to avoid trees and power lines or whatever that surround your only good landing spot.

Don't pretty much all modern 9 cell ZP canopies "float" in brakes? I can see maybe if you were facing a decent headwind, slowing the forward speed would steepen your glide relative to the ground. But on a no wind or light wind day, wouldn't going into brakes to try to sink it just make you go father (but get there slower)?

I've done a few braked landings on light wind days (only quarter and half brakes). I'd be afraid to try it on a windy day because of turbulence. I can see advantages to landing in brakes in a tight spot for one because it's not as swoopy of a landing.

[FallingDuck 0]

My problem is that the wind is strong until I get onto final and then the wind dies out so I always end up going long. I would love to have a no wind day.

[philip2005 0]

I used to hate now wind days, i could never stand up landings. But pretty much every time i've been to the DZ this year its been a no wind day so i've got a lot of practice in and now i just enjoy it. I got some good advice from instructors about staging a flare properly and just doing one long slow flare. To be honest both seem to work for me. Most important thing that they make me realise is that i don't wanna downsize too quickly. I can land my canopy fine in no wind days, i've even landed it downwind before, but i seriously wouldn't wanna try it on anything much smaller and faster.

[morten 0]

Rotating the toggle in tha hand to shorten the brakelines by 3" can hardly be considerd taking a wrap.
With short arms (like mine) the "Invert the toggle"-method may be just whats needed to get to the stalling point. I'll try it and see where it gets me

[freeflyit 0]

>>Or just end up too low to return to full-flight . . .

That is indeed an issue. However, landing in brakes and doing a decent PLF will likely result in fewer injuries than hitting said golf cart at full flight. When worse comes to worst, slower is better. <<

That was excatly my issue, and I did learn from it. Thanks to all the rest for you comments.

[sraja 0]

So I finally made a jump in no wind conditions and I kept telling myself that I am in control all the way on my final approach. I flared to 2nd stage and held it - got the surf - and then flared more. But the forward speed was still there. I PLFed and got dragged on my side and sprained my forearm. Not exactly how I would have liked it but I felt I was definetly in more control than I have ever been.

I know exactly what I didnt do right - I didnt complete my flare and bring the canopy to a complete halt. Next time I am more confident and not so afraid to jump in no wind conditions. Thanks to all your inputs here - very helpful.