PhreeZone 20 #1 June 11, 2007 http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2007/06/04/4232680-sun.html EDMONTON (Sun Media) - A city man who survived a horrific skydiving accident, in which his parachute didn't open and he slammed to the ground, is suing the company for more than $100,000. Jesse Carson claims he suffered injuries because of the negligence of the Edmonton Skydive Centre and Dave McCullough, the instructor he was jumping with. Carson was doing a recreational tandem jump - he was tied to an instructor - at the Edmonton Skydive Centre on Aug. 14, 2005. When the main parachute didn't open, McCullough pulled the reserve chute, which became tangled, the statement of claim states. The two jumpers "struck the ground at high speed without the parachute fully deploying, causing the plaintiff, Carson, to suffer personal injury and other damages," the statement of claim says. Carson suffered a compression fracture of a vertebra, chronic pain in his back and right hip, a laceration and scrape to the right ankle, a compression injury to his knees, post-traumatic stress disorder, headaches and insomnia, the claim says. He's seeking $100,000 in general damages and $15,865.75 in special damages. The suit blames McCullough and the Edmonton Skydive Centre for using a tandem parachute that had not been repacked within 180 days, failing to follow Canadian aviation regulations and failing to provide adequate instructions or any instructions to deal with a malfunctioning parachute. Aside from his injuries, Carson claims he endured pain and suffering and loss of amenities of life. He's also asking for special damages of $14,000 in lost wages, about $1,000 weekly between Aug. 14 and Dec. 1, 2005, and a $1,865.75 Alberta Health claim to be covered. A statement of claim contains allegations that have not been proven in court. Officials with the Edmonton Skydive Centre, located on Range Road 260 east of Westlock, couldn't be reached for comment and it is not known whether the defendants have filed a statement of defence.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #2 June 11, 2007 As far as things go, it doesn't seem like a whole lot to sue for.....---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #3 June 11, 2007 Correction. It should read "Tandem passenger suing jump outfit." Skydivers don't sue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #4 June 11, 2007 A few comments on this story. On the jump in question the TM was unable to throw the drogue and so went straight to reserve. The reserve did not become tangled, it suffered structural damage. I was not there but that Dave managed to get the pair down with the damage they did was a credit to his experience and skill. i understand that people in our society want to blame someone when bad things happen, but Dave saved this ungrateful son of a bitch's ass and for that he is being sued. The reserve was in date. i don't know why they are chewing on that bone. The company they are suing no longer owns any part of ESC nor are there any owners in common, so there is nothing to sue for. He signed the waiver. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cpoxon 0 #5 June 11, 2007 Sorry, in deleting Shropshire's flippant one-liner, I accidentally deleted other useful comments: ThatGuyEd said, QuoteInteresting....This is my home DZ... Negligence? From Dave? Not likely.... Tigra replied, QuoteNegligence or not, if the reserve on the tandem rig was out of date even by a day or 2, that just might cost him. Freeflyit replied, QuoteThat is negligence. Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,006 #6 June 11, 2007 >Skydivers don't sue. Kat Folger did; she was a skydiver by anyone's definition. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #7 June 11, 2007 QuoteThe reserve was in date. He signed the waiver. That's just ####ed up. You know the whuffo's in this province better than I do (in the context of whuffos showing up to make their first skydives). But I can't help but notice the image skydiving has up here compared to other places all thanks to a few select incidents where the media has been allowed to cast a negative image of the sport to the whuffo community. If the reserve was in date and the tandem passenger signed the waiver, it should be a no brainer. The dude should be thanking the tandem master that he did the right thing to save both their lives. I'm beginning to really not like this province the more and more time I spend here. It wasn't like this 10 years ago when I left here. Of course 10 years ago I was a whuffo. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 279 #8 June 11, 2007 QuoteA few comments on this story. On the jump in question the TM was unable to throw the drogue and so went straight to reserve. The reserve did not become tangled, it suffered structural damage Andrewwhyte: What brand of rig & reserve was it? I bet I can guess -- a friend was seriously injured in a similar incident -- but I want to keep an open mind here... [Edited to add after Andrewwhyte quickly replied to my post: Yes, same brand as the incident I knew of, in upper NY state 5-8 years back.] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #9 June 11, 2007 It was a Strong Master 425R Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeedToJump 0 #10 June 11, 2007 QuoteThe suit blames McCullough and the Edmonton Skydive Centre for using a tandem parachute that had not been repacked within 180 days QuoteThe reserve was in date. i don't know why they are chewing on that bone. I don't know about defamation laws in Canada, but could this be considered libel since it is a false statement that could hurt the repuation of the business? It sucks that the guy got hurt, but it doesn't sound like anything was done incorrectly.Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kenneth21441 0 #11 June 11, 2007 Just another reason why people that cant take the risk should not even try it. Hell if I was sue happy Id sue bud weiser for all the ugly women that ive seen some men pick up. What is the world coming too.... It sucks and we must protect our seleves. That is the reason why I gave up teach scuba diving due to those idiots wanting over $700 a year for suing insurance... Just in case I taught someone that was so stuipd to do something that they forgot or just paniced.. I hate lawyers and those money hungry idiots. Sorry this just pisses me off.....Kenneth Potter FAA Senior Parachute Rigger Tactical Delivery Instructor (Jeddah, KSA) FFL Gunsmith Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrismgtis 0 #12 June 11, 2007 Quote - Dave saved this ungrateful son of a bitch's ass and for that he is being sued. - The reserve was in date. i don't know why they are - He signed the waiver. In other words, it sounds like the tandem passenger is pretty much screwed. Dave should counter sue for any money and time he loses dealing with this guy. Never understood people like this myself. They buy coffee, sit it in their lap while driving and sue when it spills and burns them. They inhale smoke into their lungs for twenty years (I am a smoker myself) and sue when they finally get sick only to claim they "didn't know".Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033 Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lippy 918 #13 June 11, 2007 ESC was my home DZ for a while, and Dave is a very experienced TM with well over 5000 jumps (he had over that when I left 4 years ago) and IIRC well over 1000 tandems. That asshole who's sueing is damb lucky he had Dave on his back!I got nuthin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #14 June 11, 2007 reserve in or out of date, the lawyers don't care, they will accuse you of wrongdoing in every aspect of the skydive. "Throw enough darts and maybe one sticks" Plus it sounds better in court when you have to deny the accusations. They just like you to have to say it. TK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Canuck 0 #15 June 12, 2007 From what I heard, Dave saved two lives that day. He managed to clear a line-over on the reserve (with his hook knife) and then fly the canopy that had a hole in it big enough to walk through to a relatively safe landing in an open field. I don't know if there is such a thing as a hero in skydiving, but if there is, that qualifies him as one in my books. Here is the question that this incident raises for me. How many instructors out there routinely (as in every time you gear your students up) check that the reserve is in date? I don't do tandems, but I do AFF and IAD, and I have never once looked at the data cards during gear up. If there is an incident, and the reserve is out of date, who is at fault - the instructor or the DZ who supplies/maintains the student gear? Canuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OSOK 0 #16 June 12, 2007 I thought the waiver wasn't a "no matter what, you can't sue" but more of a "if you want to sue, it'll be harder and more expensive" type of thing. Can someone clarify? It's been a while since I signed that... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyblu3 0 #17 June 12, 2007 Shouldn't tandem equipment be designed to withstand a drogueless terminal opening? If not they need to beef it up a bit. This is the second incident I am reading about on this topic in this forum. The guys in Nambibia weren't as lucky as that was a double fatality. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elisha 1 #18 June 12, 2007 Anyone know what the TM was unable to throw the drogue for the main? Just curious. Thanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GQ_jumper 4 #19 June 12, 2007 Anyone know what the TM was unable to throw the drogue for the main? Just curious. ThanksQuote I'm curious about this one too, does anyone know if there has been a thread started about this one in the incidents forum, I'd like to read more on it. thanksHistory does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tombuch 0 #20 June 12, 2007 Quote Here is the question that this incident raises for me. How many instructors out there routinely (as in every time you gear your students up) check that the reserve is in date? I don't do tandems, but I do AFF and IAD, and I have never once looked at the data cards during gear up. If there is an incident, and the reserve is out of date, who is at fault - the instructor or the DZ who supplies/maintains the student gear? Always check. It's tough when there are lots of rigs being swapped out, but if each rig has a number you can easily create and post a master list of all rigs with repack dates. If that list is hanging in the gear room it's easy to take a quick look when you take a rig, and thus confirm it is in date. The idea is to have a bridge point (when a rig leaves the storage rack) where the date must be checked. That way, even if you use a rig that was just jumped and packed, you know that an instructor confirmed it was in date that very day.Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Canuck 0 #21 June 12, 2007 Yup, we've got numbered rigs and a master list hanging beside the student gear rack showing what size canopies are in the container and when they were packed - but who is to say that the list is up to date. I trust my DZO and assume that the list is accurate, but that doesn't make it so. Here's another scenario. Sometimes we have another instructor do the gear-ups for us. I walk into manifest and pick up 4 already geared-up students and take them out to the plane. I give them each a thorough pin check, but to check the data card, I'd have to actually have them take the rigs off. Let's say that one's out of date. Who is at fault? Me? The instructor who geared them up? The DZ? Mods, feel free to move this to the safety and training or instructor forum if you see fit... Canuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AFFI 0 #22 June 12, 2007 QuoteHow many instructors out there routinely (as in every time you gear your students up) check that the reserve is in date? I don't do tandems, but I do AFF and IAD, and I have never once looked at the data cards during gear up. If you were picking a rig off the rack that you were unfamiliar with to jump yourself, would you the check to see if the reserve is in date? This is part of a gear check… If solo freefall students are supposed to learn how to take care of themselves, how do they know to check this if you do not teach them check it themselves? Teaching students how to do a through gear check is part of our job duties. As soon as they are able, I have students pin check me on the A/C before exit unsupervised because leaning how to do this is part of what we are supposed to teach them and we are supposed to lead by example - being a solo freefall instructor is a lot more than teaching students how to survive just that jump or do loops and barrel rolls, we are building habits that will take them through their skydiving careers. It irks me when I see a skydiver fresh off student status not getting pin checks before exit – I just think to myself; that person had an instructor that was not doing their job. If you are working with students and not teaching them how to give and the importance of receiving gear checks (this includes checking the reserve card), then you are doing a disservice to the students you are working with and the skydiving community because what we teach them will infect/affect he community as a whole. Skydiving is a lifestyle of freedom, and there are a lot of mediocre instructors out there that do not do their job because they just want to get theirs or perhaps they do not know anything other than half-assed, or maybe they just don’t care. You can start being one of the ones that do our job, or you can continue to wallow in the quagmire of mediocrity – it is up to you… -Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #23 June 12, 2007 Quote It was a Strong Master 425R That's what I was gonna guess.....---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #24 June 12, 2007 It is a sad comment about the Alberta legal system if they are following in Kat's footsteps. I was working in the Perris loft the day James Martin went in. I was also polite/sympathetic to Kat during James' memorial service, but have not talked to her since then. The rigger who packed James' reserve told me his tale of woe vis a vis lawyers and law suits - in great detail. Kat eventually sued a good rigger out of the business! Iron Mike was one of the best Senior Riggers I ever had the pleasure to work with. Is it any wonder I will never do business with Kat again? One of the reasons that I left California was a fear that I would be named in a law suit. Under California law, even people who are falsely accused, still need to pay thousands of dollars in legal defense fees. Remind me to avoid doing business in Alberta. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflyit 0 #25 June 12, 2007 That's exactly the kind of thing that gets things messed up. It's like having 2 employees working the same cash and should money go missing there is no way to know. I completely understand that TM are doing the best they can and it's not their "fault" but really, isn't it time for someone to step up and take the responsibility since this is a life-or-death sport and when you have a whole bunch of people pointing fingers at each other what good does it actually do? Personally I think it should be the man in charge (DZO). It's sad because in real life nobody gives a crap about these little things especially when you have like a million things to do at once and it would just be impractical to check everything every single time, but if that's what it takes to live then 'cmon people, give those tandems a fair chance. I dunno what I'm proposing excatly, I guess my main point is that the DZO is responsible for EVERYTHING. That just goes with the territory Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 1 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. 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tombuch 0 #20 June 12, 2007 Quote Here is the question that this incident raises for me. How many instructors out there routinely (as in every time you gear your students up) check that the reserve is in date? I don't do tandems, but I do AFF and IAD, and I have never once looked at the data cards during gear up. If there is an incident, and the reserve is out of date, who is at fault - the instructor or the DZ who supplies/maintains the student gear? Always check. It's tough when there are lots of rigs being swapped out, but if each rig has a number you can easily create and post a master list of all rigs with repack dates. If that list is hanging in the gear room it's easy to take a quick look when you take a rig, and thus confirm it is in date. The idea is to have a bridge point (when a rig leaves the storage rack) where the date must be checked. That way, even if you use a rig that was just jumped and packed, you know that an instructor confirmed it was in date that very day.Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Canuck 0 #21 June 12, 2007 Yup, we've got numbered rigs and a master list hanging beside the student gear rack showing what size canopies are in the container and when they were packed - but who is to say that the list is up to date. I trust my DZO and assume that the list is accurate, but that doesn't make it so. Here's another scenario. Sometimes we have another instructor do the gear-ups for us. I walk into manifest and pick up 4 already geared-up students and take them out to the plane. I give them each a thorough pin check, but to check the data card, I'd have to actually have them take the rigs off. Let's say that one's out of date. Who is at fault? Me? The instructor who geared them up? The DZ? Mods, feel free to move this to the safety and training or instructor forum if you see fit... Canuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #22 June 12, 2007 QuoteHow many instructors out there routinely (as in every time you gear your students up) check that the reserve is in date? I don't do tandems, but I do AFF and IAD, and I have never once looked at the data cards during gear up. If you were picking a rig off the rack that you were unfamiliar with to jump yourself, would you the check to see if the reserve is in date? This is part of a gear check… If solo freefall students are supposed to learn how to take care of themselves, how do they know to check this if you do not teach them check it themselves? Teaching students how to do a through gear check is part of our job duties. As soon as they are able, I have students pin check me on the A/C before exit unsupervised because leaning how to do this is part of what we are supposed to teach them and we are supposed to lead by example - being a solo freefall instructor is a lot more than teaching students how to survive just that jump or do loops and barrel rolls, we are building habits that will take them through their skydiving careers. It irks me when I see a skydiver fresh off student status not getting pin checks before exit – I just think to myself; that person had an instructor that was not doing their job. If you are working with students and not teaching them how to give and the importance of receiving gear checks (this includes checking the reserve card), then you are doing a disservice to the students you are working with and the skydiving community because what we teach them will infect/affect he community as a whole. Skydiving is a lifestyle of freedom, and there are a lot of mediocre instructors out there that do not do their job because they just want to get theirs or perhaps they do not know anything other than half-assed, or maybe they just don’t care. You can start being one of the ones that do our job, or you can continue to wallow in the quagmire of mediocrity – it is up to you… -Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #23 June 12, 2007 Quote It was a Strong Master 425R That's what I was gonna guess.....---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #24 June 12, 2007 It is a sad comment about the Alberta legal system if they are following in Kat's footsteps. I was working in the Perris loft the day James Martin went in. I was also polite/sympathetic to Kat during James' memorial service, but have not talked to her since then. The rigger who packed James' reserve told me his tale of woe vis a vis lawyers and law suits - in great detail. Kat eventually sued a good rigger out of the business! Iron Mike was one of the best Senior Riggers I ever had the pleasure to work with. Is it any wonder I will never do business with Kat again? One of the reasons that I left California was a fear that I would be named in a law suit. Under California law, even people who are falsely accused, still need to pay thousands of dollars in legal defense fees. Remind me to avoid doing business in Alberta. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflyit 0 #25 June 12, 2007 That's exactly the kind of thing that gets things messed up. It's like having 2 employees working the same cash and should money go missing there is no way to know. I completely understand that TM are doing the best they can and it's not their "fault" but really, isn't it time for someone to step up and take the responsibility since this is a life-or-death sport and when you have a whole bunch of people pointing fingers at each other what good does it actually do? Personally I think it should be the man in charge (DZO). It's sad because in real life nobody gives a crap about these little things especially when you have like a million things to do at once and it would just be impractical to check everything every single time, but if that's what it takes to live then 'cmon people, give those tandems a fair chance. I dunno what I'm proposing excatly, I guess my main point is that the DZO is responsible for EVERYTHING. That just goes with the territory Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
