Turning onto Final

[ryan_d_sucks 0]

I was taught in my FJC that when landing I should enter my downwind at ~1000 feet, base at ~600 and final at ~300. However, most times when I'm being talked down I'm usually lower than those altitudes when advised to start each phase.

I know low turns onto final are large contributors to injuries and fatalities, and I was wondering-- How low of a turn onto final is TOO low? How low do you all usually turn onto your final (assuming you are doing just a standard landing)? Where's the real danger zone for too much toggle input in terms of altitude? I'm jumping the student rigs-- Manta 280's (weighing 190) if that sheds any light or reasoning for starting a bit lower.

Thanks,
Ryan

[chrismgtis 0]

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I know low turns onto final are large contributors to injuries and fatalities, and I was wondering-- How low of a turn onto final is TOO low? How low do you all usually turn onto your final (assuming you are doing just a standard landing)? Where's the real danger zone for too much toggle input in terms of altitude? I'm jumping the student rigs-- Manta 280's (weighing 190) if that sheds any light or reasoning for starting a bit lower.

I'm going to make "educated" guesses at some of these questions.

How low is too low?

First off, as I was taught, it takes about 10 seconds for your canopy to resume normal flight, so any turns (other than small adjustments to keep on a straight approach) that will cause any significant increase in descent rate are probably not a good idea in the last 10 seconds of your approach.

IF you are going to make a turn below 200 ft., I suggest it is a braked turn (or small toggle inputs) and that you do not lift the toggles back up until you are safely on the ground. You might not have as much room to flare on your toggles after executing a braked turn low to the ground, but releasing your toggles will cause you to drop (which is obviously bad) and if you're coming in faster than you can land softly - that is why we learn to PLF.

Not doing a PLF hurts. I found that out this weekend. Twice.

A student rig of that size is going to be pretty forgiving and I highly doubt you can put enough toggle into it to screw yourself into the ground or get killed, but then again... let's not tempt the reaper.

I would guess that canopy your jumping makes pretty flat turns. I know when I jumped the 230's (I weigh 168lbs) they turned like a tank in deep toggles. If I were to do that with my 175 at 300 ft... well.. my mom isn't going to be very happy.

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

[peregrinerose 0]

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A student rig of that size is going to be pretty forgiving and I doubt you can put enough toggle into it to screw yourself into the ground or get killed, but then again... let's not tempt the reaper.

Tell that to the student that I watched bounce after a low turn and no flare to butt landing and spent six months healing from 2 compression fractures in his spine. And his low turn was not all that radical, he just didn't have the experience to pull out of it, panicked seeing the ground that close that fast, and had almost no flare.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[speedy 0]

You can turn 90° lower than 300 feet safely under most canopies.
The 1000ft, 600ft and 300ft is a good guide to get you used to organizing your pattern for the landing. The guy who radios you down will have lots more experience than you have and may ask you to turn lower that the figures above and it will still be safe.

When landing on your own use the heights from your FJC to make your turns. As you gain more experience you come to realise than you can turn a little lower safely.

A "canopy control course" at your DZ is the best place to expand on your skills.

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[Andy_Copland 0]

http://www.dropzone.com/fatalities/Detailed/65.shtml

People can and do bust themselves up on big canopies.

Flat turns/Break turns are life savers.

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[speedy 0]

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A student rig of that size is going to be pretty forgiving and I highly doubt you can put enough toggle into it to screw yourself into the ground or get killed,

It is very easy on a student canopy to screw youself into the ground and get killed.
Low turns kill on any canopy (except maybe for rounds - I don't know anything about them).

Thinking ahead and planning your pattern is the key.

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[popsjumper 2]

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I was taught in my FJC that when landing I should enter my downwind at ~1000 feet, base at ~600 and final at ~300. However, most times when I'm being talked down I'm usually lower than those altitudes when advised to start each phase.

There's not a definitive answer for your question unless somebody duplicates your WL on that canopy and then jumps a series of jumps in different wind conditions to get a grasp on numbers.

There's something else going on here...if you were taught to turn on Final at ~300ft, why were you lower than that where the Instructor had to tell you to turn (at a lower altitude)? What are you going to do when the radio doesn't work or you can't understand the garbled mess coming out of it?

Are you practicing turns at altitude? Are you getting a picture of altitude loss for different types of turns?

You're thinking ahead...and that's good.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[kelpdiver 2]

Ryan, there is a thread in S+T that is on this topic. The "no turns" mantra in the FJC is sort of like the drive 55 on the freeway. Even on jump 1 on the radio the directives go beyond what I think of when I hear "don't turn below X" My final turn was probably at 250ft.

As always, you should be talking with your instructors on these questions. But that thread has a lot of AFF-Is talking about what they mean by low turns (good) and low turns (bad).

[FallingDuck 0]

Low turns are fatal because people are doing 180 degree turns 100 feet off the ground. I usually turn onto final between 150 and 200 feet. But that is a 90 degree turn. If you find that you are going long put a few s turns into it, but make sure that is ok at your dz.

[quade 4]

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I was taught in my FJC that when landing I should enter my downwind at ~1000 feet, base at ~600 and final at ~300. However, most times when I'm being talked down I'm usually lower than those altitudes when advised to start each phase.

This is because either; you were given "guidelines" for no wind conditions and misinterpreted them to mean "under all circumstances", your instructor was simply giving you a rote script of how to do things without regard to variables or your instructor has never considered the variables to begin with.

Making your base and final turns at specific heights rather than in consideration of wind variables will almost always assure that you miss your actual landing target on the ground. Ultimate it's safer to tell a student that he should be turning final by 300 feet agl, because that ensures he's pointed into the wind with few corrections to be made, but it's a mistake to take that as a hard and fast rule that you should ONLY turn final at 300 agl.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Low turns are fatal because people are doing 180 degree turns 100 feet off the ground. I usually turn onto final between 150 and 200 feet. But that is a 90 degree turn. If you find that you are going long put a few s turns into it, but make sure that is ok at your dz.

DONT S-turn unless you're in-danger of crashing into other obstacles, which you shouldn't be when jumping into a landing area large enough for student operations.

Some one may be behind you and going much faster. While technically speaking you have the right of way that won't prevent a trip to the morgue or get you out of the hospital any sooner.

Land beyond your target, note where you were relative to the target when you turned onto final on the jump you went wrong, and fly a longer final leg the next time you jump in the same wind conditions.

Later you can do other things to steepen your approach without S-turns.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Making your base and final turns at specific heights rather than in consideration of wind variables will almost always assure that you miss your actual landing target on the ground. Ultimate it's safer to tell a student that he should be turning final by 300 feet agl, because that ensures he's pointed into the wind with few corrections to be made, but it's a mistake to take that as a hard and fast rule that you should ONLY turn final at 300 agl.

You can always make your turn to final at about the same height regardless of wind conditions, and when the alttiude was set based on how long your canopy takes to recover from a turn that's the smart thing to do. Most swoopers do. Since the horizontal distance covered varies with wind conditions (you go longer with a tail wind and shorter with a headwind or when crabbing across the wind) the location of your turn and previous points in the pattern must move,

[quade 4]

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You can always make your turn to final at about the same height regardless of wind conditions, and when the alttiude was set based on how long your canopy takes to recover from a turn that's the smart thing to do. Most swoopers do. Since the horizontal distance covered varies with wind conditions (you go longer with a tail wind and shorter with a headwind or when crabbing across the wind) the location of your turn and previous points in the pattern must move,

Remember we're talking about a "standard" pattern here with a key point entry, downwind, base and final. Remember one major difference between a swoop 270 and a standard pattern is the amount of time you spend in it.

If you want to keep each altitude point exactly the same, then ALL the ground reference points, including the key point, have to move in conditions other than no wind.

For a newbie, that's asking quite a bit.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[AFFI 0]

With 10 jumps you are still on some sort of supervision by USPA rating holders (AFIs and/or Coaches).

Learning to reach a level of proficiency piloting a canopy is a daunting task, one of the more difficult we learn in skydiving and I completely appreciate any frustration you may be experiencing, but you are at he very beginning of your journey – be patient, it will come with time. You best bet is to follow directions from those responsible for your training in person…

As you can see by the plethora of responses, you will receive a variety of reply’s on the internet from individuals of varying degrees of expertise and none of whom are familiar with the environment, conditions and gear you are using.

So what good is asking online for is particular issue?
None I’m afraid…

At this point in your learning progression you really should be discussing these issues with those at your DZ that are training you and the most familiar with the environment, conditions and gear you are using.
-

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[hexadecimal 0]

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I'm going to make "educated" guesses at some of these questions.

How low is too low?

First off, as I was taught, it takes about 10 seconds for your canopy to resume normal flight, so any turns (other than small adjustments to keep on a straight approach) that will cause any significant increase in descent rate are probably not a good idea in the last 10 seconds of your approach.

IF you are going to make a turn below 200 ft., I suggest it is a braked turn (or small toggle inputs) and that you do not lift the toggles back up until you are safely on the ground. You might not have as much room to flare on your toggles after executing a braked turn low to the ground, but releasing your toggles will cause you to drop (which is obviously bad) and if you're coming in faster than you can land softly - that is why we learn to PLF.

Not doing a PLF hurts. I found that out this weekend. Twice.

A student rig of that size is going to be pretty forgiving and I highly doubt you can put enough toggle into it to screw yourself into the ground or get killed, but then again... let's not tempt the reaper.

I would guess that canopy your jumping makes pretty flat turns. I know when I jumped the 230's (I weigh 168lbs) they turned like a tank in deep toggles. If I were to do that with my 175 at 300 ft... well.. my mom isn't going to be very happy.

...and this reply is exactly why you should never take advice from the internet.

[mijnjiku 0]

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A student rig of that size is going to be pretty forgiving and I highly doubt you can put enough toggle into it to screw yourself into the ground or get killed, but then again... let's not tempt the reaper.

My instructors were saying that our student rigs are detuned by nature to make them less aggressive.

From the first controllability check I did, I was quite aware of their killer potential even being "tamed down."

When I put the toggle down with prejudice to do anything higher than a 90 (and even the 90's for that matter), it definitely went into kill mode.

Of course, I'm a conservative person in many aspects of life, so I don't think you'll ever find me under a pocket rocket during my involvement with skydiving. So besides my obscene lack of experience, I am biased towards having a strong respect for the killing potential of any canopy, given what I HAVE experienced with these "gentle giants".

But I'm just sayin...

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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You can always make your turn to final at about the same height regardless of wind conditions,

If you want to keep each altitude point exactly the same, then ALL the ground reference points, including the key point, have to move in conditions other than no wind.

For a newbie, that's asking quite a bit.

But is exactly what the SIM calls for in the category-C training for landing in higher winds.

I don't think moving all three points is any harder than trying to change altitudes, although I'm not in the business of trying to teach skydiving and was left to my own devices after 7 AFF jumps (training was terse 10 years ago). I also think landing a C172 accurately is easier (especially with power), and my instructor didn't let me try that solo until after 90-100 nice landings with him in the right seat.

The missing piece in the pattern section is that with winds every change in speed (via brakes or risers which also change trim) changes glide ratio - decreasing speed down-wind preserves altitude, while decreasing speed cross-wind and on final looses altitude for a given horizontal distance. That may be covered elsewhere in the SIM


Quoting
http://www.uspa.org/publications/SIM/2007SIM/Section4CatC.htm (the images are missing when I load the URL)

Illustration 4-C.5. Adjusting the pattern for the day's conditions.

1. The landing pattern is square on a calm day, with each leg based on the canopy's projected glide distance from 300 feet of altitude (see illustration).

a. Each jumper must know his or her own canopy's glide distance from 300 feet in no wind to plan a pattern.

b. The instructor estimates the 300-foot no-wind glide distance for beginning students.

2. The planned final approach must be shortened from the known zero-wind square pattern as the wind increases; for example, cut the final approach approximately in half for ten mph.

3. The base leg also shortens as the wind increases; for example, also cut the base leg approximately in half for a ten-mph wind.

4. Plan the 1,000-foot pattern entry point farther upwind as winds increase; for example, double the length of the downwind leg used for calm conditions, ending at the new projected 600-foot point for ten-mph winds.

[chrismgtis 0]

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http://www.dropzone.com/fatalities/Detailed/65.shtml

People can and do bust themselves up on big canopies.

Flat turns/Break turns are life savers.

Which is exactly why I said to use them and not take the chance.

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

[chrismgtis 0]

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It is very easy on a student canopy to screw youself into the ground and get killed.

Realize that the sentence you quoted me for also said don't do it.

You guys need take the entire point into consideration (not directed at anyone in particular). Don't read half the sentence and say "That's wrong".

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

[speedy 0]

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A student rig of that size is going to be pretty forgiving and I highly doubt you can put enough toggle into it to screw yourself into the ground or get killed, but then again... let's not tempt the reaper.

Above is your entire paragraph. Sorry Chris, but there is no doubt in my mind.

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[quade 4]

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I also think landing a C172 accurately is easier (especially with power), and my instructor didn't let me try that solo until after 90-100 nice landings with him in the right seat.

And like yourself, I too learned how to land in a C-172. I think the difference is that a bit later, the FAA decided I was competent enough to teach other people as well. I was a CFI for a number of years.

When I taught people to land an airplane (and I'll admit this is different than a parachute and the USPA method, but does follow the FAA guidelines exactly), you begin your decent for the landing at pattern altitude "abeam the numbers" going downwind. This part doesn't vary.

It remains a constant because it's very difficult to accurately judge the wind speed for landing until that point, which is what you've been observing while running downwind from the Key Point. If you attempt to change the key point, as the USPA manual suggests, then you're setting yourself up for failure as far as any real accuracy goes. Whereas if you use a consistant ground reference (landing area + some specific angular and distance offset) it's MUCH easier to judge the winds (and therefore the accuracy of the landing) because you can see exactly where you are in relationship to a fixed set of data.

If I had the time, I'd draw a few diagrams.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Andy_Copland 0]

You have 47 jumps. You are as experienced as me. I suggest not offering advice, you've already shown that you are a smart guy on some posts, but dont let it go to your head. On this one you really didnt offer anything.

Little nuggets of info can hurt people, i hit a students alti as it was reading wrong. On the way down she was on video tapping hers in freefall as thats what i done to get hers reading correctly.

Leave it to the guys who are qualified.

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[AFFI 0]

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You have 47 jumps. You are as experienced as me. I suggest not offering advice, you've already shown that you are a smart guy on some posts, but dont let it go to your head. On this one you really didnt offer anything.

Little nuggets of info can hurt people, i hit a students alti as it was reading wrong. On the way down she was on video tapping hers in freefall as thats what i done to get hers reading correctly.

Leave it to the guys who are qualified.

Great post...

[Baksteen 84]

I see people telling this guy that he is not offering sound advice, and other people agreeing with that.

I can see why, but maybe an instructor or other very experienced person could/should point out the more lethal mistakes and correct them, just in case?

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[chrismgtis 0]

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You have 47 jumps. You are as experienced as me. I suggest not offering advice, you've already shown that you are a smart guy on some posts, but dont let it go to your head. On this one you really didnt offer anything.

Little nuggets of info can hurt people, i hit a students alti as it was reading wrong. On the way down she was on video tapping hers in freefall as thats what i done to get hers reading correctly.

Leave it to the guys who are qualified.

You can say what you want but I don't exactly see saying "You could do this, but it's not smart" as "bad advice". So to each his own.

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan