bob.dino 1 #51 December 8, 2004 That's a fair enough source. It's probably better that the two of us stop debating the merits or otherwise of the plane, as I think we've both reached the limits of our respective competence in this area . We've both got good sources, but neither of us are pilots... If I can corner one of our pilots at the weekend, I will. I think at least two of them are rated on the XL 750. That said, this weekend is the DZ Christmas party (free !), so my ability to remember anything other than my name may well be severely compromised . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigway 4 #52 December 8, 2004 good call. .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
britboynz 0 #53 December 8, 2004 QuoteThe PAC was designed in new zealand for the tandem operations. They were not designed for sport jumpers. Is it not bizzare how one of the largest tandem operations in the world being taupo tandems, new zealand is getting rid of theirs as the prefer their islander for the tandem industry. Now people will probably say taupo tandems is not the one of the largest operations in the world but this place does do over 100 tandems a day 7 days a week for 6 months of the year, and this place generally has excellent weather. I remember the USPA recogninsing it as the largest tandem factory in the world a few years ago. they are getting rid of theirs to a dz in the uk as they are not happy with it. You may also be aware that it was designed for tandems going on how easy it is to stall and does not like being stacked with formations. Hmmm. Bigway I'd suggest you get your facts straight rather than just post hearsay from your mate at Mercer. My home DZ is Taupo Tandem skydiving and I've heard no talk about getting rid of our 750. On the contrary, everyone seems pretty pleased with it. We are mainly a tandem & AFF DZ that does some sport jumping as well (did 200 tandems in one DAY last summer) & the TMs have no problem getting ready or getting out of it. If we're on a full load it's a bit tight, but this isn't a major (we have 2 rows of benches down the middle in ours). I reckon that the 750 that was jumped by the guy who stated their TMs didn't like sliding about in it doesn't have benches, which I agree, would be uncomfortable. When I was down there a few weekends ago there was a staff/sport jumpers 8-way which had no problem whatsoever with the tail (total of 13 on the load). one of the guys in the 8-way was bloody huge (at least 6'4 and built like a brick shithouse lol). All the remaining jumpers were simply asked to be as far forward as possible when the 8-way exited. Personally, I think they are awesome a/c. I've done about 40-45 jumps out of the PAC & similar number in the Cresco we had before getting the 750 & a few jumps out of the porter at Mercer & the fletcher in Motueka. The 750 IMHO wins hands down every time. This will sound a bit bizarre, but I have yet to have the pleasure(!?) of jumping out of a Cesna lol. Oh, and our other a/c is a Nomad, not an Islander Russ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigway 4 #54 December 8, 2004 QuoteHmmm. Bigway I'd suggest you get your facts straight rather than just post hearsay from your mate at Mercer. My home DZ is Taupo Tandem skydiving and I've heard no talk about getting rid of our 750. On the contrary, everyone seems pretty pleased with it. Fair enough mate, i phoned Libby the other day about a project we have and for some reason we started talking about the pac coming over here to the uk, i said to her that i had seen photos of the taupo one here in the uk skydive mag, her reply was along the lines of John getting rid of it....?? what ever though my apologies for having my facts wrong...again. i am glad you enjoy it. On another note, libby has just had 12 days in a row of non jumping, how is it going in taupo? have you got the crap weather as well? Libby bought my brother and sister out for a tandem jump each but right after the drove an hour + each time the weather just packed in, bit of a shame, i would love my little bro to do a jump. Are you going out to mercer for the return of the porter party? .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #55 December 8, 2004 That makes a lot of sense. I never doubted that the 750 would be good sense for Aggieland. When I was down a few years ago there was talk of a Caravan. The 750 makes a lot more sense than a Caravan. My only objection was that the 750 was a good replacement for a 182. This can only be the case if you've got potential business to fill expanded capacity. The 750 is an upgrade path. Alternate upgrade paths include the Caravan and King Air. Which ever path is chosen, going to a larger, faster airplane only makes sense if you're able to grow the business. Many 182 DZ's do not have that ability. The 750XL is not a drop in replacement for aging 182's. It's an upgrade path that allows a 182 DZ with capacity issues to grow. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WeakMindedFool 0 #56 December 8, 2004 Hey dude! The PAC need's like 8 to launch 4 to turn at SDFaith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves. -Eric Hoffer - Check out these Videos Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WeakMindedFool 0 #57 December 8, 2004 or is it 6 or 7 to launch???? I can't remember. I do know it will turn with 4. Anyways all, we put 4 or 5 outside with 2 or 3 in the door all day long with no stall on any load I've been on and I jump out of it every weekend. It's cramped but it's fast so you can't have everything I guess. Prop blast is a bitch when floating but....who cares, it climbs like hell.Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves. -Eric Hoffer - Check out these Videos Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #58 December 9, 2004 Quoteor is it 6 or 7 to launch???? I can't remember. I do know it will turn with 4. Anyways all, we put 4 or 5 outside with 2 or 3 in the door all day long with no stall on any load I've been on and I jump out of it every weekend. It's cramped but it's fast so you can't have everything I guess. Prop blast is a bitch when floating but....who cares, it climbs like hell. I would rather be comfortable for 25 min on a caravan than cramped for 15 on a PAC. At least when I am doing 6 jumps+ a day and packing fast to make the next load all day long. Its a nice time to relax ~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
manifestRyan 0 #59 December 10, 2004 It's funny to listen to people talk about something they have no time with, eh? keep it up weekmindedfool.....seeya in the sky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #60 December 11, 2004 I don't like it, too small inside. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What other airplane are you comparing the PAC 750 to? According to PAC's propaganda, the PAC 750 has the same cabin cross section as a Pilatus Porter or King Air 200. Granted, the PAC 750 is narrower than Cessna's Caravan, but I always found that Caravans were wider than I needed. If you are comparing the PAC 750 to a Twin Otter ... I find Twin Otters are less comfortable for tandems, especially when you consider how side benchs make it difficult to tighten side straps. I would rather do tandems all day out of a King Air (same cabin cross-section as PAC 750) with bob sled seats, and the narrow door on the King Air makes it easier for me to push off with a left elbow when using my hand-mounted camera. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
btucker 0 #61 December 15, 2004 I've done just over 100 jumps out of a PAC 750XL at Skydivne Nagambie http://www.skydivenagambie.com.au/ with my 8way team, NexGen. The XL is a beaut, climbs like a home sick angel. The door is the same size as a caravan, but the roof is abit lower and the body narrower. We've had no problem at all taking 8way exits out of the XL. The standard 8way chunk is cake – front font half stands on the wing In the very early days, at a boogie the XL did stall on jump run when doing a fun 8way, the climb out was probably pretty slow. I think the issue is with center of gravity. To allow an 8way with just a single pilot in the aircraft, Nagambie used ballast (a 4way team) then concrete blocks – long since removed. The pilots have figured it all out, use a wee bit more airspeed, 5knots – which I'm told is significant on an aircraft this size. We've had a couple of very long stackups and never had a problem. I'm also told the aircraft has two flap settings, flaps aren't used on jump run or landing (empty). On a light load (10-11 on board) flaps aren't used on take off. With a full load, full flap was used and it was an extremely short roll. The static vent is to the right of the door, right about where a rear float coule (would) block it!! The pilots don't seem bothered by this. I also noticed that all fueling was done hot, even when shutting down the pilot would land, taxi to the bowser, fill up, then taxi 50m to the “bus stop” then shutdown. The Nagambie DZO says their standard policy is to operate with “five or more”. As for the negative, The XL is very cramped with a full load – 17. Thankfully this has been rare, it's also fortunate that Nagambie isn't a full blown tandom factory. The climb rate with 17 is obviously slower = longer to feel the pain! In contrast a caravan can be worse if your the poor sod in one of the three across rows. An otter or a skyvan is luxary! BTW: We don't have benches we sit on the floor, but in a slightly different configuration from what PAC have published – probably due to there being two pilot seats. At nationals, I asked another operator who had a smaller PAC {cresco} about operating with five, he said he'd basically break even, but was happy to do so. He wanted people to jump -> put it up and they will pack! Blue Dreams, Benno Blue Dreams Benno Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dumpster 0 #62 December 15, 2004 Thanks for the useful information, Benno. Very informative! I will pass this on when our people get back from California checking out the PAC out there. Easy Does It Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 9 #63 January 9, 2006 According to the search I did on the FAAs website... there are 5 PAC's operating in the US. Looks like 1 (or 2 ?) at Davis and then Mark-Mark's at Taft and then a couple of other's around the US... http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/mmsinqSQL.asp?mmstxt=05617YD ... although, I'd take some of that with a grain... as the search engine on the FAA's web-site seems to be a bit finiky... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paige 0 #64 January 9, 2006 I heard from a birdie most places got them for free for marketing purposes and when they sell it, the dz flies it elsewhere for the purchase. I know Fayard got one and we have on in DeLand, don't know if DeLand bought it but Fayard did not according to my source. I'd like to see how many they put out there for sure, it's a neat looking plane.Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #65 January 9, 2006 Ours (Raeford Parachute Center) arrives in April, so I'm told. I know the plane is bought and paid for already. Apparently they are now being contract built somewhere in Canada; not sure by whom. Ours is supposed to be the first one off the line in that plant. We are selling one of our Otters and our Twin Bonanza to defray some of the cost. That will put us with the following here at Raeford: -1 CASA 212 -1 Super Otter -1 PAC 750 -1 Cessna 182 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #66 January 9, 2006 Quote Looks like 1 (or 2 ?) at Davis There is currently 1 PAC flying at Davis. Since the US importers of the plane (Utility Aircraft) are based there, occasionally more than one is on the airport. I've been jumping the one at Davis for the past year. It never flies with more than 15 jumpers and usually flies with less (only takes 5 to start it). With 15 it's no more cramped than a full Otter load, and it climbs faster so you're out the door much sooner. I knew I was officially spoiled when I was on a full Otter load at Perris last month and spent most of the climb looking at my Neptune saying "we aren't there yet?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dumpster 0 #67 January 9, 2006 QuoteI knew I was officially spoiled when I was on a full Otter load at Perris last month and spent most of the climb looking at my Neptune saying "we aren't there yet?" Imagine going from a PAC to a 182!! Bring a book! Easy Does It Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dumpster 0 #68 January 9, 2006 The one you folks have in DeLand is the same one we had up at East Troy all season. One weekend we had two of 'em here, did some two-plane formation loads, which made it into Parachutist this last issue (Sunset Loads-) Sweeeeeet! Easy Does It Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
twotter 0 #69 January 9, 2006 not a patch on a caravan(van pilot), it should be quicker to height got an extra 75-150hp but you also have increased fuel burn. much more cramped than a van and a lower tail to boot think the 750 is a bit hyped up myself i would take second hand caravan any day, at least it has got resale value you will always get what you paid Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #70 January 9, 2006 QuoteApparently they are now being contract built somewhere in Canada; not sure by whom. I believe it's a French company called Mecachrome, located near Montreal. Pretend they're canadian... it'll make ya feel better! (J/k frenchies!) Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #71 January 9, 2006 Quoteit should be quicker to height got an extra 75-150hp but you also have increased fuel burn. At the same fuel burn, it will climb faster. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dumpster 0 #72 January 9, 2006 It's not a bad plane at all. A DZ can make money on fun jumpers and a pilot that can fly it effciently, turn 4 loads an hour easy. It can get cramped yes, but at least you're only on the plane a few minutes. I think it's a very fair trade, particularly with fuel prices the way they are. Easy Does It Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #73 January 9, 2006 QuoteI see the PAC750 in the same class as King-airs, Caravans, and -24 otters. I think it's telling those are the same aircraft UTC uses in their cost comparisons. King Airs have two engines that ups cost per hour. They cost a bunch to insure since so many have been landed gear up (GA) or had some pilot rip the flaps almost off (IL.) Otters have two engines that cost a bit...Plus since they are popular now even ragged out ones cost a bunch. Caravans cost as much, and don't have the turn times. Porters are good, but its really hard to find pilots with enough tail dragger time to get on the insurance...For a good reason, they can be a pain in the ass....Wagstaff a World Champion pilot wrecked one during the filming of "Dropzone". QuoteI can't see how someone can fly a million dollar airplane with 4 $20 slots and make a a finance payment, never mind have something left over. With an interest free loan, a million bucks over 10 years is a hundred grand a year. If fuel were free, pilots grew on trees, and maintenance was a thing of the past, that plane would have to fly 1250 4-slot loads just to keep the bank off your back. As far as I can see, there isn't any way for a DZO to put food on the table by flying that plane with 4 jumpers. Yes, a DZ could not survive by just flying 4 jumpers all the time. Have you ever been a jumper at a Cessna only DZ? If not then you would not know that most Cessna DZ's could fly more than 4 most of the time if they had a plane that could carry more than 4. One Tandem with Video takes the plane for 25 mins. There is one slot left for a solo jumper, but that does not get filled most of the time and goes empty. If you had a plane that could break even with 4 jumpers then anything over 4 is profit. So think one tandem and a level 4 AFF. Now its turning a profit on every load. Or even an AFF Level 1 and a two way. Fact is a good number of small DZ's could fly more jumpers if they had a plane that could carry more. Now people just sit on the ground, or drive further to a turbine DZ. Its a good plane for a small DZ that has fun jumpers and Students. I am looking forward to jumping one at some point."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 9 #74 January 9, 2006 Quote It never flies with more than 15 jumpers and usually flies with less (only takes 5 to start it). With 15 it's no more cramped than a full Otter load, and it climbs faster so you're out the door much sooner. I've jumped the one over at Taft a couple of times and I may be remembering wrong... but I want to say that with the right seat out, they said could put 16 Jumpers + Pilot on board??? QuoteI knew I was officially spoiled when I was on a full Otter load at Perris last month and spent most of the climb looking at my Neptune saying "we aren't there yet?" The bird (Tafts's PAC) certainly got up there at a respectable rate and it was a good jump platform and all, looked to be well operated, good DZ, etc... but it wasn't this, "Oh my Gawd, the G-Forces are Killing Me"... "Climbs like a raped-Ape", hype I heard before getting on it... maybe that's just me. Anyway... if given the choice... "Super Otter w/ big motors" or "PAC750"... I'll take the Super Otter for twelve five please Alex... but if given the choice... "PAC750 or Cessna 206C"... I'll take the PAC... in the end, they're all just elevators really... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 273 #75 January 9, 2006 QuoteI've jumped the one over at Taft a couple of times and I may be remembering wrong... but I want to say that with the right seat out, they said could put 16 Jumpers + Pilot on board??? I've never jumped the one at Taft so I don't know what they are doing. At Davis it's never more than 15 jumpers and the pilot, and when there are 15 there is one jumper sitting in the copilot seat. According to the manufacturer's specs, you "can" put 17 jumpers and the pilot in one. I jumped Davis' PAC at Rantoul in '04 with 17 and thought it was very uncomfortable. QuoteAnyway... if given the choice... "Super Otter w/ big motors" or "PAC750"... I'll take the Super Otter for twelve five please Alex... Given the choice I'll take the PAC with 15 or less over any other plane out there (yes, even Mullin's KA - I much prefer the PAC's door to a King Air door). And since the one at Davis often flies with 10 or less... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 3 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
skybytch 273 #75 January 9, 2006 QuoteI've jumped the one over at Taft a couple of times and I may be remembering wrong... but I want to say that with the right seat out, they said could put 16 Jumpers + Pilot on board??? I've never jumped the one at Taft so I don't know what they are doing. At Davis it's never more than 15 jumpers and the pilot, and when there are 15 there is one jumper sitting in the copilot seat. According to the manufacturer's specs, you "can" put 17 jumpers and the pilot in one. I jumped Davis' PAC at Rantoul in '04 with 17 and thought it was very uncomfortable. QuoteAnyway... if given the choice... "Super Otter w/ big motors" or "PAC750"... I'll take the Super Otter for twelve five please Alex... Given the choice I'll take the PAC with 15 or less over any other plane out there (yes, even Mullin's KA - I much prefer the PAC's door to a King Air door). And since the one at Davis often flies with 10 or less... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
