What's causing pilot chutes in tow?

[JohnMitchell 16]

I'm trying to collect info on what's causing people to tow their pilot chutes. Is it un-cocked pilot chutes, bad bridle routing, or maybe people just aren't clearing pilot chute hesitation? Please relate your story here, including what caused it, how you handled it, and whether or not the main ever came out.
I did tow one a long time ago, with the old bungee closing loop and cloth bridle system, before curve pins were invented. We had pulled high after RW to do some CRW, so I was able to just fall an extra 1000 feet or so, rolling on my side and watching it, til it opened. Next week, I ordered my first pull out. So there's my story. Please tell yours.

[davelepka 4]

No personal experience, but we had two newer jumpers mis-route bridles in the same day.

One was detected in a pin check on jump run. He rode the plane down.

The other made it out of the plane, and went on to land his reserve in a drainage ditch (with open areas on both sides of the ditch).

[wmw999 2,538]

I've had two; one I cleared, the other I pulled my reserve. Both were from experimenting with my gear in the 70's (also the cloth bridle/bungee system, this one with 2 loops ).

I discovered the hard way that an A-3 pilot chute with the spring removed is not a good long-term replacement for a hand-deploy pilot chute. It lasted about 10 jumps.

I also discovered that there's more to making a square hand-deploy pilot chute than just remembering what my buddy's looked like 3 months earlier and copying it on my sewing machine.

Fortunately, I was able to get past the young-and-stupid phase. Well, the young part at least.

Edited to add: I had R2's (an adaptation of Capewells), so I left them in place and just pulled my reserve in each case. Capewells didn't stay together nicely like 3-rings, so it was much more open for debate as to whether you should cut away first.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[pilotdave 0]

I had one at about 50 or 60 jumps. I think it was a combination of a shrunken kill line and an especially tight container (I'm guessing the pin was pulled but the bag wouldn't come out...but I don't know for sure). I pulled the bridle and it opened (after flipping me onto my back) and opened with a bunch of twists.

Dave

[Monkeyb 0]

I had one Saturday, because I forgot to cock my PC. I hadn't rented gear from the store before, and was used to jumping navigators, and had forgotten about cocking the PC since my packing class a month earlier.

[mnischalke 0]

I've had a few issues and have seen a few more on friend's rigs. I believe the culprit to have been the closing pin. I have seen two different patterns of curved closing pins out there. One is a continuous curve from the ring to the tip, while the other has more of a straight area below the ring, which gradually increases in curve. On the latter types, I have picked up packed rigs by their bridle when the pin is fully seated. It seems this straight area will cantilever against the grommet, thereby compounding the force needed for extraction.

These latter pins also tended to be rougher on the surface than the former.

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[mouth 0]

I had one Saturday. The bridle where the pin attached was torn. See pics posted in Incidents.

--
Hot Mama
At least you know where you stand even if it is in a pile of shit.

[Frenchy68 0]

I had a PC in tow about a month ago. Not 100% sure, but I assume it was caused by a lazy throw, and the PC got caught in my burble. After feeling nothing happening for way too long, I grabbed my cutaway pillow. It seems that the action of reaching for it cleared the PC, and it caught air and the canopy deployed fine. 1,000ft lower than I would have liked it though. Since then, I've been doing the "looking over the shoulder" thang after throwing the PC out...

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[diablopilot 2]

1) Mis-routed bridle.

2) Out of spec kill line.

3) Worn out pilotchute.

4) Weak throw/ in burble.

5) Uncocked kill line

In that order. Given altitude, a collapsed kill line P/C will usually cock it's self enough to open the container and deploy the canopy.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[JohnMitchell 16]

Thanks for the replies, everyone. If you're writing from personal experience, please remember to include how you handled it and if you would have done anything differently.

[skyhighkiy 0]

I heard of someone jumping...I believe it was a javeline that had the more square cut flaps. anyway, closed the flaps out of sequence ( left, right rather than right left) and upon deployment, the bridle got caught under the right flap.

BE THE BUDDHA!

[diablopilot 2]

That was a comon problem (in my experience) with a series of Talon 2 containers. The stifner was cut in such a way that if the excess bridle was stowed *too* well the P/C would tow. The manufacturer has since changed the design and retrofit many containers.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[lopullterri 0]

Someone packed for me and decided that my loop needed to be shortened. After towing it and checking over my shoulder, I reached back, grabbed the bridle and pulled the pin. Lesson learned...there is such a thing as too short of a loop.

~"I am not afraid. I was born to do this"~

[sundevil777 102]

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Since then, I've been doing the "looking over the shoulder" thang after throwing the PC out...

I also like to watch the bag lift off my back, it is nice to know right away whether that part of the sequence has gone right. I don't worry about my shoulders being uneven before I turn my head back again, but I jump a relatively docile canopy.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[kelpdiver 2]

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No personal experience, but we had two newer jumpers mis-route bridles in the same day.

One was detected in a pin check on jump run. He rode the plane down.

Does that look obvious on visual inspection (a misrouting)? Anyone have pictures to show some examples?

[mr2mk1g 10]

I have had PC in tow on a great number of hop+pops with my current kit.

Kit is a Wings W13 built for a 170 main/160 reserve – housing a 170 main/160 reserve. 28 inch ZP PC with approx 100 jumps on the system. It closes up nice and tight although the closing loop certainly is not what you would call too tight for freeflying – I am able to pull about an inch of excess past the grommet when packing.

Various different delays out of various aircraft. Worst results occur in the lowest airspeeds.

Solution is usually to spill my burble by turning to look. On the odd occasion that this hasn’t worked I have reached around the back and manually pulled the pin by grabbing the bridal and yanking.

I consider this to be a non-event caused by a combination of the low speed deployment and a tight pack job. It doesn’t appear to matter if I pitch in the prop wash or 5 seconds after exit. 10 second after exit and it opens right up but when we do our hop+pops at 3k a 10 second delay is not always particularly desirable.

A longer closing loop for hop+pops would solve the problem but that would introduce its own set of risks on freefly jumps.

Overall this issue certainly doesn’t concern me; it’s merely annoyance value. Now if it happened at terminal there would be something wrong...

[riggerrob 643]

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That was a comon problem (in my experience) with a series of Talon 2 containers. The stifner was cut in such a way that if the excess bridle was stowed *too* well the P/C would tow. The manufacturer has since changed the design and retrofit many containers.

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I have experienced the same problem with Mirages and Vectors and suspect that the problem is related to stuffing the bridle too deep, past the corner of the stiffener in the bottom flap.

[diablopilot 2]

Agreed. It can be a problem with any rig, a result of "too much" protection.

My old DZ had, at one time a lot of Talon 2's so that's what we saw it on.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[JohnMitchell 16]

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I have experienced the same problem with Mirages and Vectors and suspect that the problem is related to stuffing the bridle too deep, past the corner of the stiffener in the bottom flap.

Stuffing it so high up it caught on the top of the flap, is that right? I've never seen that but it's easy to see how you could tow one that way.

I train people packing to stuff the bridle under the side flap, but above the top flap, so that the tuck tab doesn't have any chance of binding it. A lot of folks run the bridle straight down under the top flap, then tuck the tuck tab right over it, pinning it down. Doesn't make sense to me.

[davelepka 4]

No pictures, sorry.

The one that was caught in the plane was a Jav or Mirage where the bridle was coming out the top of the side flap, then going back in where it came from. The flap was pinning the bridle down, and would have prevented the pin from being pulled.

It's an odd sort of mis-route, and one that would have involved some effort to set the bridle and close the flaps over top of it, but this guy did it.

The jumper who gave the pin check is a rigger with 7000 jumps, and noticed the error right away. Another newbie might have seen a seated pin and cocked pilot chute, and sent the guy out the door.

[diablopilot 2]

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Stuffing it so high up it caught on the top of the flap, is that right?

Eh not so much. It's hard to describe, but on the Talons it was just a matter of tucking it up to far and then when it extracted the tension of the flap and the shape of the stifner would make a cornerthe bridle would get pinched buy. I'll see if I cant simulate a picture later....

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[flipper 0]

have a talon 2 and suffered a pilot chute in tow several times - I reasched round and pulled on the towing chute to release it.....after looking at it on the ground I put it down to several things

1. slightly tired pilot chute
2. the bridle catching on the bottom flap stiffener

I have replaced the pilot chute and no longer stow excess bridle above the level of the bottom flap stiffener

flipper

[happythoughts 0]

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1) Mis-routed bridle.

2) Out of spec kill line.

3) Worn out pilotchute.

4) Weak throw/ in burble.

5) Uncocked kill line

In that order. Given altitude, a collapsed kill line P/C will usually cock it's self enough to open the container and deploy the canopy.

All these are good points and are worth repeating.

Solutions?

Kills lines shrink over time. They may be lengthened sometimes. After that, replaced.

PC in burble? Change your body position to allow the airstream to run across your back and then prepare for line-twists and/or a slam opening.

[SuperKat 0]

The jump prior to the jump I had a pilot chute in tow, I did an intentional cutaway, using a skyhook system. It was my 90th jump or so. I had a lazy pull. So after I did my lazy pull, I go back into my arch and don't feel any opening shock and I'm still freefalling. I turned back to look at what was going on. I thought I had a bag lock. So immediately, I went to pull my cutaway. I inadvertently turned my head right and the upper right side of my body back trying to look and pull the cutaway handle at the same time. Well, sure enough just as I was about to pull on my cutaway, I stopped freefalling and sat up in my harness. I must have cleared the burble behind my back when I spastically looked for the cutaway handle and tried to pull it. What a relief! After I landed, I noticed my pilot chute was inside out and the hackey was inside the mesh. How that happened, God only knows.

What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo?

[happythoughts 0]

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I inadvertently turned my head right and the upper right side of my body back trying to look and pull the cutaway handle at the same time. Well, sure enough just as I was about to pull on my cutaway, I stopped freefalling and sat up in my harness. I must have cleared the burble behind my back when I spastically looked for the cutaway handle and tried to pull it.

When you dipped your shoulder, it allowed air to run across your back and find the PC in the burble.

The only thing to be aware of is that one shoulder will be low on opening. The opening may whack you. Also, because of the one-shoulder-low body position, line twists are likely.

That is the best way to clear a PC on your back, but it is important to be aware of what will occur afterwards.