RSL with High Performance Canopy?

[weezy 0]

Do you have an RSL flying a High Performance Canopy and why?

[TOTALCHAOS127 0]

yes
Quick answer is read http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=18

[billvon 2,991]

> Do you have an RSL flying a High Performance Canopy and why?

Many people use an RSL with a high performance canopy because things happen very quickly under high performance canopies - a spinner may lead to a distorted harness and a low chop, and that's the time you need an RSL.

[AggieDave 6]

I don't have a RSL, but my next rig will be a Micron and will have a Skyhook. As of right now I'm jumping loaded 1.9:1 on a XF2.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[skydiverek 63]

Skyhook adresses many objections against RSLs on high performance canopies.

http://relativeworkshop.com/pdt_skyhook.html

[DrewEckhardt 0]

No. With sufficient altitude I'd rather be stable belly-to-earth or head-high than firing my pilot chute arround me or while spinning.

Statistically this is more dangerous.

I've remained altitude aware during my spinning malfunctions, have just one unintentional deployment below 2500 feet when I was younger and dumber, and am comfortable with much longer delays from my cutaway altitudes. The last one had me fully open on my reserve by 2000 feet.

I'd use a skyhook - the "pilot chute" already has enormous drag and should have you completely open before you can develop line twists, although RWS doesn't make a container size that interests me.

[egons 0]

Velocity 103 + V306 Skyhooked equipped! I personally have done enough test jumps on the Skyhook rig to be sold on it!

Give the system a bash when I have it at Boogies - it will solve most of, if not all your questions/concerns.

See attachment of low breakaway - was in Skydiving not long ago... certainly answers many low canopy collisions!

Cheers
Egon

"Start doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you're doing the impossible!"

[D22369 0]

Do you have an RSL flying a High Performance Canopy and why?
***
No, I am comfortable with my emergency procedures and flying a camera on most of my dives.

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[diablopilot 2]

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Skyhook adresses many objections against RSLs on high performance canopies.

No it really doesn't. It's just a faster version of an RSL, it doesn't change things as much as people would like to believe.

I can't believe suddenly this has made the RSL fashionable.

It's always been a great device.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[GravityGirl 0]

Drew, how many spinners have you cut away from?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[AggieDave 6]

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It's just a faster version of an RSL, it doesn't change things as much as people would like to believe.

Not quite man.

All an RSL does is pull your reserve pin, the Skyhook yanks the damn freebag/PC/reserve clean out of your container after pulling the reserve pin.

It doesn't change things?

Have you jumped one of the Skyhook cutaway rigs yet?

A reserve came out so fast that it felt like a tandem trap door. I've witnessed (on the cutaway rig) a "spinning mal" (the guy burried a toggle and let it get a lot of speed) and the reseve opened fast without line twists.

I've had 2 cutaways from spinning mals with a standard RSL and both gave me linetwists on my reserve.

A friend of mine cutaway on his fairly new M-series with a Skyhook. He had a lineover on his Sabre2 190 (loaded at 1.3:1), he had a pretty good spin going. He had a great opening on his reserve with no line twists.


Ok JP, so explain to me again how its just like an RSL, just a little faster and it doesn't change things.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Drew, how many spinners have you cut away from?

Seven - Turbo Z 205, 3 x Batwing 134, 2 x Stiletto 120, 1 x Samurai 105.

[PhreeZone 20]

Might I suggest a better packer?


I'll probally be putting the RSL back on my rig at the next repack. I took it off when I was jumping camera all the time, now that I'm not it only makes sense to put it back on.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[diablopilot 2]

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Ok JP, so explain to me again how its just like an RSL, just a little faster and it doesn't change things.

I said: it doesn't change things as much as people would like to believe.


It is my beliefe that most chop to linetwists on the reserve scenarios result from people strugling to get belly to earth imediately after they chop. If you relax, and understand that as you chop (say from a mal where you are spinning on your back) you are oriented feet into the relative wind the moment after your canopy has been released. This is an ideal body position for a reserve deployment. I have 2 real breakaways, and 8 intentionals to add evidence to this theory.

I'm not knocking the SkyHook, and I do understand it's function, I'm just pointing out that peoples reactions to it are not based on logic.

People who say "I wouldn't jump an RSL, but I'll jump a SkyHook" have probably not though out their statement.


It's a faster RSL.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

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Might I suggest a better packer?

I was gonna say body position.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Might I suggest a better packer?

Body position, flying through the openings, and equipment maintainence would have done more good :-)

I have no idea where the TZ malfunction came from.

One of the Batwing malfunctions came from a skysurf, another my second wingsuit jump. I switched to a Monarch for those jumps where different openings were likely.

After the other Batwing malfunction and first Stiletto spinner, I got in touch with flying through my openings and things went well for 500 jumps - no line twists, better heading control, and no cutaways. Much better.

The Siletto openings got wierder in the last 100 jumps on its line-set and I ignored them because it was landing well. Evidentally, 600 jumps is not always a reasonable life expectation for 550 microlines. After it spun up again, I got my Samurai and stuck the Stiletto in a plastic bag.

The Samurai spinner came from a brake fire. I think that's worn velcro with a switch to Slinks - without bumpers the slider comes down _fast_. This one may also have been recoverable - it wasn't spinning fast or accelerating.

[AggieDave 6]

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People who say "I wouldn't jump an RSL, but I'll jump a SkyHook" have probably not though out their statement.

I don't jump an RSL but my next rig will have a Skyhook, and I've thought out my decision quite well.

The two rides I've had were on tandems, RSL fired the reserve before I got the reserve handle pulled (which is generally the case) and I have to tell you, there wasn't much fighting to get back belly to earth. Kinda hard in that second or so to fight myself and my student to a belly to earth position. I did arch like a mofo and told my student to arch (leg locking and holding their legs in an arch), but that was the extent I could really do.

Both times I saw the reserve coming off my back over my right shoulder due to the spinning malfunctions and both times I had linetwists on my reserve.

As I have more malfunctions (knock on wood) I'll keep your comments in mind, just at this point I have a hard time fully believing you.

Instead of "its a faster RSL" I think "its a freak'n big reserve PC" would be a more accurate description.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[skymedic 0]

yes I do...well I did till my rigger forgot to hook it back up. I jump a ST150. I had a spinning line twists down to the risers pushing my head between them and down against my chest(makes for finding the handles easier) and cut away relaxed. this was a high G high speed malfunction and had zero line twists on deployment of my reserve. I had an RSL on at the time of deployment.

oh..the why part, cause I believe you are just setting your self up for bad stuff to happen if you try to wait to be belly to earth when you should be wanting to be belly to relative wind upon reserve deployment...which is what will happen as you are shot out like a cannon from a spinner. well that was my feeling when I finaly cutaway from the thing. I lost almost 2000feet from time of deployment ttill time in the saddle and did it all in a VERY short amount of time. I had a very hard time getting my hands up to the handles due to the high G's. (body position,body position, body position)

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

[AMax 0]

I had been jumping with an RSL until I changed my main from Sabre1 to Cobalt (had about 540 jumps by then)
The main rational to disconnect it was a higher probability of spinning malfunction. While jumping a Sabre1 I got used to pulling close to minimum deployment altitude and sniveling through the last alarm (1.6K on pro-track) of formation loads. I would probably not be very comfortable doing that on elliptical canopy w/o an RSL. The fact that 99% of my jumps now are 4-way with higher deployment (usually around 3K) and less crowded airspace also influenced the decision to remove an RSL. It is a personal decision.

P.S. Ironically, my first cutaway was from spinning malfunction on the first jump on new canopy and w/o an RSL

[freeflyfree 0]

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See attachment of low breakaway - was in Skydiving not long ago... certainly answers many low canopy collisions

now that picture without the proper description looks deceiving, If remember well that guy had packed the reserve slider-down for an even faster opening...see it again

Felipe

--
Blue Skies
NO FEARS, NO LIMITS, NO MONEY...
"A Subitánea et Improvísa Morte, Líbera nos, Domine."

[tkhayes 348]

YES - I am sick of this debate. RSL's save lives. Probably only a handful of people on DZ.com started skydiving before the RSL was invented and we watched our friends go in time and time again.

We put them there for a reason. If you are concerned about an unstable reserve deployment, then why have a Cypres? The Cypres is there in case you are unconcious in freefall and if you are unconcious, then i doubt you would be stable. But you have one anyway.

The very instant that you chop from a spinning anything, your body will fly in a straight line due to centrifugal force. period. You are no longer spinning.

Any wiggling or flailing that you do beyond that is your own creation. So don't wiggle and flail, pull your handles like you are supposed to. Back to earth or face to earth, your reserve pilot chute still launches and will likely clear anything and everything.

Sure people have had RSL related fatalities. People have also died as the result of wearing a seatbelt in a car. HOWEVER, wearing the seatbelt is still the better option.

Exceptions for RSL's include video, CReW, and a few other specialty jumps. But not for normal freefall skydiving.

Connect your RSL and use it. Buy a Cypres as well.

TK

[skymedic 0]

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Sure people have had RSL related fatalities

and usualy there is a maintainance issue related. i.e...broken risers due to over use.

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

[AndyMan 7]

I jump a Stileto loaded at 1.8. I would use an RSL in a heartbeat, if it were not for the fact that I also jump camera.

I would prefer an RSL activated reserve deployment under my Stileto then one I did myself - it were not for the camera.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[sundevil777 102]

Might be a good time to take another look at this:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1074224;search_string=RSL;#1074224


http://www.dropzone.com/...thequotReserve.shtml
Facts about the "Reserve Staticline Lanyard"
Posted Thursday, October 15, 1998
By Relative Workshop

Facts about the "Reserve Staticline Lanyard"Lately there has been a big push towards the use of the reserve staticline lanyard (RSL) for experienced jumpers.

Most proponents of the RSL have only been dwelling on the positive aspects of the RSL without considering the negative consequences.

The Relative Workshop wants to educate each jumper regarding the pros and cons of the RSL system so you will be able to make an informed decision about this popular, yet controversial modification.

For those of you unfamiliar with the RSL system, a short description is in order. The RSL is a simple lanyard connecting one or both of the main canopy risers to the reserve ripcord. In the event of a main canopy malfunction, and following a successful breakaway, the reserve ripcord is pulled as the main risers depart with the released main canopy.

In essence, the RSL indirectly connects the breakaway handle to the reserve ripcord handle. Unfortunately, this simple lanyard can easily complicate a routine emergency for those who are more than capable of handling the problem manually.

The RSL has gained much of its notoriety through its use on student equipment. The RSL is ideal for students because the probability is high that a student might breakaway from a malfunction lower than the recommended altitude, and delay longer than necessary before deploying the reserve. Having the reserve deploy in a unstable body position, while far from ideal, is preferential to not having the reserve deploy at all. Waiting for the AAD to fire if the breakaway is extremely low is a chancy situation at best. For these reasons, the RSL is quite compatible for student gear and most instructors would probably agree!

RSL's work great on tandem systems as well. The tandem instructor really has his hands filled during a malfunction so the speedy deployment of the reserve is a big advantage. Stability after a breakaway is generally not a problem as the tandem pair have inherent stability qualities due to the positioning of the passenger and tandem master. If the tandem master has properly prepared the passenger's body position, a tandem breakaway has a greater potential for instant stability than a solo breakaway.

Both student and tandem jumps are carried out at higher altitudes and rarely involve other jumpers in the same airspace, minimizing the chance of canopy entanglements which can complicate matters severely.

RSL's and the experienced jumper - Pros vs. Cons
Remember, the RSL does one thing and one thing only: It will activate (providing it does not physically fail) the reserve container following a main canopy breakaway. That's it! Now lets talk about the disadvantages of the RSL.

1) Most jumpers don't realize that utilizing a RSL correctly requires changing their emergency procedures. Why? The reason is simple: Most RSL systems offer the ability to disconnect it from the riser. If it's disconnectable, then there will be situations that may require a disconnection before proceeding with the breakaway. An obvious one that comes to mind is a canopy entanglement with another jumper. If one or both jumpers have an RSL and they mindlessly breakaway without considering the consequences, they might very well find themselves entangled again, possibly for the last time! Canopy entanglements are happening more frequently now than ever before due to several reasons:

A) More inexperienced jumpers engaging in larger RW formations. B) The recent popularity of ultra-fast zero porosity canopies. The result is: Skies crowded with more inexperienced jumpers flying faster canopies.

Emergency procedures for systems fitted with RSLs would change in the following manner: Before the breakaway, you must ask yourself (considering your present malfunction) if an immediate reserve deployment will be in your own best interest. If not, the RSL must be released before proceeding with the breakaway.

NOTE: Anytime the RSL remains active during a breakaway, the jumper should automatically plan on pulling the reserve handle anyway just in case the RSL connection fails to activate the reserve container for whatever reason. This lack of awareness regarding the need to back up the reserve pull manually is an increasing and disturbing trend among some of today's jumpers.

2) The average jumper will take more than several seconds to analyze and determine if the RSL disconnection is necessary. This can obviously consume valuable time. No doubt the average jumper would be better off handling the emergency manually by pulling both handles, which is not a difficult task.

3) Lets examine the cause of malfunctions in the first place. The biggest culprits are improper packing and rigging, or bad body position during deployment. (Bad body position can be defined as shoulders not perpendicular to the relative wind.)

s almost impossible to be stable within the first second and a half following a breakaway from a malfunctioning high performance main canopy. Therefore, the typical RSL user is most likely unstable during the reserve deployment.

Instability causes malfunctions and allowing the RSL to open the reserve container for you will increase the chance that the reserve canopy will malfunction as well. One might argue that this would be a rare occurrence, but why would an experienced jumper take the chance? Some would consider this an unacceptable risk!

4) CRW enthusiasts, for the obvious reasons mentioned in point 1, do not want or need a RSL. For those that have one, it should be disconnected prior to boarding the aircraft on a planned CRW jump.

Freefall videographers should never jump with an active RSL systemThe last thing a camera-person needs is the reserve deploying while they're unstable. Just recently in France a fatality occurred when a RSL-activated reserve canopy entangled with the jumpers helmet-mounted camera equipment.

6) The RSL will not work during a total malfunction of the main container, and do not assume that it can take the place of a functioning, properly calibrated automatic activation device. An RSL is not an AAD.

Summation
The RSL system was developed over 25 years ago and found its proper place on student equipment. Due to the fact the skydiving community encounters several deaths each year attributed to the "no-reserve-pull-following-a-breakaway scenario," we have many individuals who feel the RSL is the answer for the experienced jumper. Our belief is quite simple: If every jumper had a RSL, then the amount of RSL related deaths each year would be many more than we now encounter with no-pull situations.

Naturally we have tremendous concern whenever someone wants to take a simple, 3-handle system and turn it into some complicated apparatus in an attempt to make up for the inadequacies of the poorly trained or ill-prepared jumper. We believe if you stick to the basics, constantly rehearse your emergency procedures, and assume you'll have a malfunction on every jump - you'll be much better off.

Remember: The RSL is not a safety device for experienced jumpers because it takes more time to operate it correctly than to pull the breakaway and reserve handles manually. Now that you have been presented with the all the facts, we hope you'll make the right decision for yourself regarding the RSL.

If you would like to have a consultation on your personal skydiving equipment needs, please call Relative Workshop at anytime during the hours of 8am - 6pm EST. We have a highly experienced staff of riggers and instructors who are anxiously awaiting to assist you. If we don't have the answers to your questions, we probably know who does! Remember, we're here to help you make the right decisions concerning your skydiving equipment and its proper use.

Send comments or questions to aimee@relativeworkshop.com
Copyright © 1998 The Uninsured Relative Workshop Inc.
Reprinted with Permission

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[diablopilot 2]

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Naturally we have tremendous concern whenever someone wants to take a simple, 3-handle system and turn it into some complicated apparatus in an attempt to make up for the inadequacies of the poorly trained or ill-prepared jumper. We believe if you stick to the basics, constantly rehearse your emergency procedures, and assume you'll have a malfunction on every jump - you'll be much better off.

Yep, sure is a great argument for that thar SkyHook thingamajig.


Make the decision for yourselves.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.