What is a standard and predictable pattern?

[MakeItHappen 15]

What is a standard and predictable pattern?

What is your answer?

My answer

Please discuss.

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[billvon 3,058]

Same as for aircraft, basically. Jumpers join the pattern flying downwind on an agreed-upon side. They fly past the landing area, make a 90 degree turn to base, then make a 90 degree turn to final.

[gearless_chris 1]

Don't we have about 30 too many posts about this already?

"If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane.

My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole.

[tbrown 26]

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Don't we have about 30 too many posts about this already?

Apparently NOT, as some DZ's have free for all combat zones in their landing areas, with people flying every which which way and then yelling at each other about it. I won't say where, but I've seen it and it happens.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[Baksteen 84]

The way I was taught, which boils down to:

If necessary get back to the "parking space" and stay there.
Cross the predetermined 1000 ft. line at that altitude and with the wind at your back, if necessary crab a little. Make a left hand turn, so you are flying against the wind at 250 ft, WITHOUT crossing the 250 ft line, which was also predetermined.

Do NOT make any wild turns below 1000 ft, as these cost altitude and could cause you to crash. In addition, you might end up crashing into another jumper.
(this is not a dig at swoopers; fact is that some additional rules apply to students
edit I cannot open that "my answer" link..

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[DAVE619 0]

It looks like a rectangle...

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Contrary to what you may think, goal oriented swoopers (you know the ones who have a target like a set of entry gates on a dedicated swoop course) fly the same pattern you speak of except to say that our altitudes are higher that the ones you think of. Swooping (for the serious swooper) isn't just about pulling down on a riser and hoping for the best. It's about flying as consistent of a pattern that we can fly to our setup points adjusting for the WX conditions as we go, then evaluating our altitude once we get to the setup point and whipping out the appropriate tool from the toolbox of tricks to get ourselves down to the entry gates.

Note: serious swoopers wear visual digital altimeters (some use audio ones as well even though I prefer visual) which help us guage our progress in our patterns and give us the much needed altitude information we need to know what tool can be used at the setup point. Sure once in the turn it's all visual, but swooping is evolving into a science and isn't just about pulling down on any old riser like some people seem to think.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[pilotdave 0]

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Contrary to what you may think, goal oriented swoopers...

I think you're talking about a small fraction of swoopers and a TINY fraction of skydivers.

MOST swoopers are just skydivers that end their jumps with some sort of speed-inducing turn.

Those swoopers that mainly do hop n' pops to avoid traffic conflicts and make swooping their entire priority aren't necessarily a problem. Conflicts are caused when you mix two different traffic patterns in the same place. Swoopers may fly a very predictable pattern, but it is not the same pattern that non-swoopers fly. They can't mix in the same airspace at the same time. Hop n' pops are a great way to keep them from mixing, but obviously most swoopers swoop on normal skydives and some DZs discourage or dissallow low passes.

Dave

[MakeItHappen 15]

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Contrary to what you may think, goal oriented swoopers (you know the ones who have a target like a set of entry gates on a dedicated swoop course) fly the same pattern you speak of except to say that our altitudes are higher that the ones you think of. Swooping (for the serious swooper) isn't just about pulling down on a riser and hoping for the best. It's about flying as consistent of a pattern that we can fly to our setup points adjusting for the WX conditions as we go, then evaluating our altitude once we get to the setup point and whipping out the appropriate tool from the toolbox of tricks to get ourselves down to the entry gates.

Note: serious swoopers wear visual digital altimeters (some use audio ones as well even though I prefer visual) which help us guage our progress in our patterns and give us the much needed altitude information we need to know what tool can be used at the setup point. Sure once in the turn it's all visual, but swooping is evolving into a science and isn't just about pulling down on any old riser like some people seem to think.

Well then fill in the blank:

A conventional pattern includes the airspace from the
ground to 1000 ft directly above the landing area plus a 500 foot lateral margin.

A swoop pattern includes the airspace from the
ground to ___________ ft directly above the landing area plus a 500 foot lateral margin.

These descriptions have been added to
What is a standard and predictable pattern?
and the glossary.

But, the swoops I've seen from people doing them in the main landing area are usually from below 1000 ft.
Swoops at competitions or solo approaches to a swoop course start much higher.

I think you should reread the article because I do mention standard swoop patterns as being part of the 'standard and predictable' patterns.

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[billvon 3,058]

>goal oriented swoopers . . .fly the same pattern you speak of except
> to say that our altitudes are higher that the ones you think of.

I'd say that such swoopers are no problem at all. If you can stick to a normal pattern, then you're compatible with normal traffic (including traffic at Eloy.)

[stratostar 5]

round parachutes

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[GraficO 0]

Ok... let me build a scenario:

At my home Cessna DZ... there a never more than 8 jumpers in the air at any given time. We are so small that the two people who actually do high performance tuns to final over the main landing area are well known to 95% of the people who jump here. The HP pilots know who is on the load and their typical landing patterns and vice-versa.

If I travel to Eloy or Elsinore, etc.... I have no idea what other people's typical and predictable landing patterns are nor does anyone else know what mine are.

Cannuck's post as far as the precision and technical precision of a HP pilot's swoop does make sense... but the point I'm trying to make is that we're all fine at home with people we know... but on vacation it's somewhat open season.

I will say this, I agree with SDAZ's motion to minimize that probability of another canopy collision but that is where it ends. There is no solution given to allow all pilots of all experience levels to do their landing pattern... HP swoop or box approach. From previous discussion it would seem that a larger main landing area would help to allow more room for all types of approaches. In talking with several pro swoopers much of the consensus is that there should be some sort of HP landing area so people not doing HP landing should just flatly stay away from the area.

Many other DZs have designated landing areas for students (Elsinore and Perris come to mind first)... why not have a HP landing area, a general landing area and student landing area. That way people of like approaches can have a more constant idea of what other people in the pattern for that particular landing area will be doing.

I'm open to new ideas... it just seems that banning a blossoming part of our sport isn't the right way to go... it just needs finesse.

GraficO

"A Mind is a terrible thing to taste."

[billvon 3,058]

>In talking with several pro swoopers much of the consensus is that there
> should be some sort of HP landing area so people not doing HP landing
>should just flatly stay away from the area.

I agree. But how to get that across to people? Most people do not read DZ.com. That's why I think USPA has to get involved and get BSR's in place to give DZ's guidance on how to do this.

>it just seems that banning a blossoming part of our sport isn't the
>right way to go... it just needs finesse.

I agree there also. But that will be the effective result in many places if we continue with "business as usual."