Videoing AFF jump

[CornishChris 5]

Does anyone know if there are any BPA regs relating to videoing AFF jumps. I am aware that there are obviously inherent risks for the videographer and that the AFF instructors don't need anything else to worry about so they need to be able to trust the person videoing, but wondered if there was a regulations.

The reason I ask is that a friend is doing AFF 1 and has asked whether I will be able to jump with her and video. I have no idea what the DZ would say but have jumped with tandems and would be comfortable doing it if allowed.

CJP

Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people

[AFFI 0]

If I were the JM on the jump I would be strictly opposed to allowing any skydiver on a student jump that is not supposed to be there, I have learned this the hard way.

There is no good reason for you to be there, a student on an instructional jump has enough to concentrate on, much less the distraction of a lurker.

If getting video is the motivation, hire a qualified videographer that is experienced filming AFF jumps.
-

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[PhreeZone 20]

Just curious, do you have video availble on your AFF1 jumps for students to buy?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Spatula 0]

I read his post as if he were the videographer, not lurker. Maybe I didn't read that correct though.

If he's a qualified videographer and the DZ sells video w/AFF 1... why wouldn't it be ok?

[AFFI 0]

Yes

I work at a tandem progression DZ but we do offer straight AFF for those who want it. We have a very experienced staff of camera flyers and they are available for hire for any level of student skydives.

Any time in the past when a student requested outside video/pic’s on a low level student jump I will always request a camera flyer who has experience with student jumps (current or formerly AFF rated when possible).

In the past, outside lurkers or inexperienced vidits have always created a distraction hindering their (students) performance in obtaining the TLO’s. So I just do not allow lurkers on student jumps anymore.

There will be plenty of time to jump with friends after completion of the student progression.
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Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[AFFI 0]

  Quote

I read his post as if he were the videographer, not lurker. Maybe I didn't read that correct though.

If he's a qualified videographer and the DZ sells video w/AFF 1... why wouldn't it be ok?

The point being "qualified".

A lot of unexpected circumstances can arise on a student jump; especially an AFF L1 and I personally will not allow a skydiver with such low jump numbers on a jump like that.

A LOT can happen (go wrong), you just wouldn’t believe!
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Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[Spatula 0]

I have no real feet to stand on in this conversation due my lack of experience, that I understand. But was the OP's point of view as a lurker, or the actual videographer?

Also, he simply asked about BPA regulations, you simply spouted off w/your personal opinion and preferences. So what good did you do to answer the the original question?

I've only been around 2 years and already have seen things that amaze me and my limited knowledge of the sport. I couldn't imagine nearly half of what you've experienced in your jumps, time so I won't even attempt too.

[DSE 5]

  Quote

I have no real feet to stand on in this conversation due my lack of experience, that I understand. But was the OP's point of view as a lurker, or the actual videographer?

Also, he simply asked about BPA regulations, you simply spouted off w/your personal opinion and preferences. So what good did you do to answer the the original question?

I've only been around 2 years and already have seen things that amaze me and my limited knowledge of the sport. I couldn't imagine nearly half of what you've experienced in your jumps, time so I won't even attempt too.

I'll take AFFI's "spouting" over regs, rules, and suppositions any day of the week. Nothing wrong with asking questions, but a little respect might be in order. He's extremely experienced.
I don't know about BPA regs regarding students, but;
A-Someone in authority needs to make the call regardless of regs/rules.
B-At 369 jumps, I doubt the guy is ready to be shooting AFF 1. WAY too much can go wrong too fast, and if he's not trained...We've had too many canopy collisions recently. Why risk it? I'm at about the same number, doesn't seem like a good idea.

[spoons 0]

I believe you have to have CCI's approval and that is all...

[Spatula 0]

[AFFI 0]

  Quote

Also, he simply asked about BPA regulations, you simply spouted off w/your personal opinion and preferences. So what good did you do to answer the the original question?

All I can do is share my personal experiences witch are only marginally extensive as I have only around 500 student jumps.

Often times the exit count with a low time instructional skydive is not exactly spot on, it might go without a count or a count that is longer than expected, sometimes the exit can be dragged out resulting in a tumbling situation. Now I am only addressing this one potential issue, if the camera flyer gets confused simply by the lack of experience that cam flyer can get mixed up into a tumbling exit thus creating a situation that is worsened by another body in the mix of tumbling bodies that Instructors have protocols in which to deal with at a somewhat safe level the camera flyer needs to be aware of, practiced and familiar with these protocols.
Handles can be extracted inadvertently, gear can be entangled creating a situation where bodies cannot separate resulting in a deployment of a main were the cutaway handle was inadvertently extracted leaving the two entangled skydivers to tumble away out of control and when the cypresses fire canopies can entangle and the landing will be nasty. There is a lot that could potentially go wrong

I am stating only a potential scenario of which there are many possible variations. This particular scenario is only the tip of the iceberg of what could potentially go wrong.

It is not my opinion but a pure and simple fact that having an inexperienced camera flyer on a low level instructional jump can create a plethora of undesirable circumstances.

An AFF L1 has enough potential to go wrong, why add additional risk? If I were in the OP’s shoes, and it were really a good friend of mine I certainly would not want to add additional risk to an already complex skydive.

When I initially earned my rating I had no clue of the potential of mishap concerning instructional jumps, although usually, everything goes well, when the sit hits the fan anything can happen. Instructors need to be prepared for any potential mishap and there is no sense in terms of safety by adding an additional risk factor.

All I am offering is my opinion based on my limited experience, so I apologize for the "spouting".

Thanks for the kind words Douglass...

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Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[pincheck 0]

i think it was just that you offered a opinion and not a answer to his question which was on Bpa regulations mate. There is nothing wrong with giving others the benefit of your experience sometime the Internet thing doesn't always come across as you mean it
I'm sure Chris will check with His CCI who is in charge of all operations at a dz in the UK, not the owner. We are heavily regulated in the UK AFFI so rest assured no one would be aloud to just stroll up to the dz and do camera work

Bpa ops manual section 6.

6.1. Cameras may only be used by FAI ‘C’ Certificate (Red) parachutists after inspection and approval of a CCI.

The regulations over here are tightly inforced and followed mate or there are serious consquences for the dz as well as the jumpers,involved. Hope this helps you guys, the BPA op's manual is here in word format if you want a look

Billy-Sonic Haggis Flickr-Fun

[Spatula 0]

Dude, thank you, you seemed to get what I was saying.

Simply put, someone asks a very specific question and it seems more so lately on this site that people throw out all other thoughts, advice, preferences, experiences except the answer to the question.

He didn't really ask what else could go wrong, he asked what the BPA reg was. That was my whole point. If you don't know the answer to the question, why bother tossing your two cents in? I'm going to end my comments on the thread there...

But, on a final note, I would like to apologize to AFFI. My tone was a tad out of line. It wasn't meant as a sign of disrespect towards your experience, jump #'s, qualifications, etc...

[CornishChris 5]

Thanks guys.

I always feel a certain level of trepidation posting on here, with an expectation of 'holier than thou', 'you're not experienced enough' comments being fired at me.

It's good to see some level headed people answering the question that was asked.

Blue ones to all who have answered in a positive manner, even if in a negative way.

CJP

Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people

[Fast 0]

  Quote

Thanks guys.

I always feel a certain level of trepidation posting on here, with an expectation of 'holier than thou', 'you're not experienced enough' comments being fired at me.

It's good to see some level headed people answering the question that was asked.

Blue ones to all who have answered in a positive manner, even if in a negative way.

Time out. My interpretation of this post is that the people who you were happy to get answers from are the 3-4 people posting on this thread who are in no position to say anything? They have less experience than you and no real perspective. The one guy who does know whats up is the one you think answered in a negative way.

I don't like being an asshole but I am willing to be one. Straight up, you don't have enough experience to be jumping video on an AFF jump. Unless you have a couple hundred hours in the tunnel that we don't know about or your profile is way out of date. You list around 360 jumps, 200 of them freeflying, 100 belly flying. That right there is a problem.

The thing is you are going to go ask your CCI or whatever anyways so I am wasting my breath. However there are a lot of other people out there who read a thread like this who might show up at a DZ and just try to get away with this or think that it is a good idea. It isn't. Being that I am a videographer at a DZ I might know a little bit about it.

There are significantly more things that you have to deal with shooting AFF jumps that are way more complicated than shooting tandems or RW. You can't pose any risk to the student.

How many RW jumps have you shot? How many tandems? How much practice with your camera wings do you have? Don't use camera wings? Did you know AFF jumps can go pretty slow because of the shape of the formation and that students dont like to arch? What do you do if the student tumbles out the door? What are the rules about where you can and can't be on an AFF jump? How do you time the exit? What are jumpmasters going to do at breakoff time? What is your rule about when to pull? When do you track? Are you heads up enough to not forget to break off if the dive goes low? Are you comfortable in the air near other canopies? (that shit happens) Where do you video from on an AFF jump? What is the number 1 rule of videoing students? Do you know to stay the fuck out of the way so the student can actually learn? Do you want to make the person you are jumping with more nervous?

There are more questions too. I don't want to discourage you from posting but if you come on here fishing for answers eventually someone like me is going to give you the answer to the question you should have asked.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[Spatula 0]

Your absolutely right....he is probably going to just ask away and see if he could. Hopefully the DZO will say the same thing you just did and it's all a mute point.

My whole reason for jumping in this thread is that people won't simply read and answer a question. There's no harm in answering his question on BPA's...IS THERE?

I realize your trying to be the mentor, and share experiences which is great..hell I learned a lot by reading your post....but through out that whole post....you never touched the question....WHY?

Just frustrating reading thread after thread and most follow the same script....

[nbblood 0]

Because merely answering the question could provide encouragement to go ahead. The question he asked is irrelevant, he just doesn't realize it. That's what some are trying to point out. Now it's been answered, but it's still irrelevant. I agree that the OP going on a student jump is a very bad idea based on what we know.

Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

[billvon 3,070]

>I have no idea what the DZ would say but have jumped with tandems and
>would be comfortable doing it if allowed.

I don't know about what instructors in the UK are like, but here in the US there is no way I would let someone jump to do video with a student of mine unless they were a professional videographer (i.e. they do it regularly and are paid by the school to do it.) Most AFF-I's I know feel similarly. There's just too much that can go wrong.

A minimum level of experience that I would want before I'd let someone lurk an AFF is an AFF-I rating, and even then they'd have to have a pretty good reason (like evaluating a change in procedures or something.)

[Fast 0]

  Quote

Your absolutely right....he is probably going to just ask away and see if he could. Hopefully the DZO will say the same thing you just did and it's all a mute point.

My whole reason for jumping in this thread is that people won't simply read and answer a question. There's no harm in answering his question on BPA's...IS THERE?

I realize your trying to be the mentor, and share experiences which is great..hell I learned a lot by reading your post....but through out that whole post....you never touched the question....WHY?

Just frustrating reading thread after thread and most follow the same script....

The reason is simple. He isn't asking the right question. Most of the experienced people who post on here are able to read what a person writes and come to some conclusion (yes that is right, a judgment or assumption) of what it is they want to do. That is because it has been asked before or they have dealt with it at thier own DZ.

People come on with pointed questions in an effort to avoid getting the answer that really matters. I personally don't know the BPA regulations about what is required to jump with AFF students because I am not from the UK. What I do know is that even if the BPA didn't specifically have a regulation against it, it doesn't make it a good idea.

If you ask a question like the one he did you should expect to get a lot more than the simple answer you were looking for. Why? Well some people just like to come on the net and be an internet tough guy. Some people posting here actually care about you though. Some might not care about you, but do care about the sport as a whole and want to protect it. That is why people get answers that on the surface seem to not have anything to do with the question.


He asked if there were BPA regs, but that question is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if there are regs or not because he doesn't have enough experience to be jumping with AFF students. At least not by what I would think to be traditional standards and based off what he has in his profile. His question gets ignored because it is a question that doesn't matter. People want to make it out to be all about the experienced person being "holyier than thou." It doesn't have anything to do with that.

The simple matter is that almost everyone thinks they have the skills to do something until someone else comes along and shows or explains to them that they don't or they try and fail. I know that I'm gonna come to that realization at least once this summer. When it comes to students who couldn't possibly know better it is important to not let someone try and fail because the consequences are great.

Maybe, I am not acting so much like an asshole as I might seem.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka