Should I comply?

[fpritchett64 0]

Hi, I'm sure this has been discussed before, I may have even seen a similar discussion, but not sure of all the details.

I'm a packer at a small dz, where I have been packing sport rigs for the aff instructors and camera men for a little over a year now. Only malfunction I have packed was mine when I was still learning to pack, about a year ago, and was required by the dzo to pay for the reserve repack, etc ( I was still on AFF), but thats understandable, I packed and jumped the rig, so I'm ultimately responsible.

However, I have just recently started packing tandem rigs, and have been informed by the dzo, that if I pack a tandem rig, and it has a malfunction, that I will owe him, but there are so many variables that can cause a malfunction.

Does everyone else feel that this is fair? How should I respond?

[Jhoek 0]

find another DZ..... total bullshit

[darkwing 5]

I think the DZO is nuts. If malfunctions are rare, then you can just chalk the charges up to the cost of doing business. I assume he will only charge you for the pack job on the reserve? If he wants to charge you for damage and/or loss of the main and reserve also, I'd say take a hike.

I see a widespread tendency to always blame the pack job for malfunctions. My not too ignorant estimate of the fraction that are actually caused by packing is about 10%. Malfunctions happen.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[catfishhunter 2]

Don't Pack Tandem Rigs...pretty easy answer

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

[stratostar 5]

I have heard that SDC will charge the TM for a canopy if it is chopped and lost. Don't know that to be fact, just what I was told by a former TM there.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[johnny1488 1]

That's total nonsense. I would not pack if I were threatened with that, and I have a pretty good track record. Cutaways are part of the sport, and looking to cash in on the packer when you can't always blame them is garbage.

The DZO has made plenty of money using those rigs you packed, but if there is a cutaway, you have to pay? Walk away. That is not the norm.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[bozo 0]

Thats a bunch of bullshit. Tell that DZO hes an ass.

bozo
Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars.

[peregrinerose 0]

I've been a packer for 2 summers and to my knowledge have packed one malfunction. Just my luck it was one of the DZOs. I was not required to pay for the repack. She had an almost identical malfunction on the same canopy a few jumps later (different packer), the canopy has since been retired or sent to PD for inspection as the odds of it being the pack job are remote.

Although I was never told about a policy of repacks, I always assumed that I would not be responsible for the repack should I pack a cutaway for the very reasons you describe. Though I admit, if I did pack something that was clearly my fault (uncocked pilot chute, for example), I would in a heartbeat volunteer to pay for the reserve repack.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[cjsgrlsx3 0]

I am not a packer nor do I have that many jumps but I wonder does he expect you to pay for any of the jumpers injuries if they have a cutaway? Seems a little crazy to me.

[Scoop 0]

Tell them if they have that much concern about losing equipment they should get an insurance policy written up. Shit happens from time to time, they should either accept it or shut up business in my opinion.

If I paid you to wash cars I'd expect you to scratch a panel now and again, pull someones badge off, stain the upholstery. Just consider it an occupational hazard.

As a fun jumper who can't pack I expect my packer to put my canopy in the bag and close the container. The rest is a gamble of which I wouldn't lay blame if it went wrong unless obvious incompetance.

[Croc 0]

This guy made you pay for a reserve ride when you were renting student gear? Are you joking? You need to find a new DZ pronto!

"Here's a good specimen of my own wisdom. Something is so, except when it isn't so."

Charles Fort, commenting on the many contradictions of astronomy

[fpritchett64 0]

Yes, he made me pay for the main to be fished out of a tree, which was $60.00 and the reserve repack another $40.00, however, I did take responsibility because I packed the mal.

I was an AFF student at the time, level 4

[Legs 0]

Time to change your DZ. The club atmosphere at my DZ is likely to get you a cheap plane ride especially if your reluctant after your first chop.

Your DZ doesnt sound like a fun place to be when the DZO wants you to think about the cost implications before chopping on his DZ.

With love in Christ

[fpritchett64 0]

You've got a great point!!

Overall, I like the atmosphere at my dz, but when I first started out, I was a little confused at the cost of a tandem, $219.00, to 10,000 ft. However, it is a small dz with just a C-206 and C-182, so I thought well maybe thats the reason.

I confronted the dzo about the cost of the tandem when I first started out, because I've been around dz's since I was 13. His response was that he makes his profit off of tandems, and just breaks even with sport jumpers, charging $20.00 for 10 grand and $15.00 for 5 grand.

I dunno, Chester in SC is starting to sound better and better

[Tink1717 2]

Pack somewhere else.

Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off.
-The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!)
AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717

[billvon 2,990]

>My not too ignorant estimate of the fraction that are actually caused by
>packing is about 10%.

I'd put it well over 50%. We've had jumpers at Brown who had quite consistent malfunctions that went away completely when someone else packed their canopy for them.

(Note that if you restrict the pool of people to experienced packers/riggers, the 10% might be valid - but I don't think it's valid for skydiving as a whole.)

[squirrel 0]

Quote

Hi, I'm sure this has been discussed before, I may have even seen a similar discussion, but not sure of all the details.

I'm a packer at a small dz, where I have been packing sport rigs for the aff instructors and camera men for a little over a year now. Only malfunction I have packed was mine when I was still learning to pack, about a year ago, and was required by the dzo to pay for the reserve repack, etc ( I was still on AFF), but thats understandable, I packed and jumped the rig, so I'm ultimately responsible.

However, I have just recently started packing tandem rigs, and have been informed by the dzo, that if I pack a tandem rig, and it has a malfunction, that I will owe him, but there are so many variables that can cause a malfunction.

Does everyone else feel that this is fair? How should I respond?

yet another reason I will never "cut away" as they say and work at a dropzone. I have cut away from working for other people though.

my advice, go out and work for yourself somewhere, make big money, and just pay to jump...its alot alot alot easier. but hey, thats just my 2 cents.

________________________________
Where is Darwin when you need him?

[tonyhays 86]

Just out of curiosity where you just learning to pack on your AFF level 4 or had you already been packing for a while?

Either way, I think making you pay for that is a crock!

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”

[bigway 4]

Stop packing there. You are being taken advantage of. Tell the DZO to go fuck himself and find someone else who is gullible enough to work for him

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[skydance1954 0]

I've jumped at a lot of DZ's in more than one country over a long period of time. I've NEVER seen a DZO in all that time tell his packers that they should/will pay for the repack and/or the canopy should it be lost or damaged. Cutaways on student gear or tandem gear just happen. The numbers are against them. Even on a small DZ that gear is getting jumped hundreds of times more often than the regular jumpers gear. Therefore, it's a cost of doing business.

It is the DZO's right and responsibility to run his place safely and within ethical, legal and business guidelines to keep the place running. However, that said, I believe that in this case, he's made a poor business decision. Packers and instructors are going to keep second guessing their calls when things go bad, and someone is most likely going to get hurt at some point.

If he is adamant about this line of thought, find another DZ to work at.

Malfunctions will happen. Packers are not always at fault. However, if it can be proved that the packer DID do something wrong, at minimum he or she should volunteer to return the fee for the pack job, and assist with recovery of the main.

- just my 2 cents.

Mike Ashley
D-18460
Canadian A-666

[Mozencrath 0]

I pack at a fairly large DZ (200+ tandems per weekend) so between students, camera guys, instructors, and tandems, mals are not uncommon. Our packers are not responsible for any damages or repacks...Not the packers responsibilty. You should not have to pack under those circumstances.

[obelixtim 150]

I agree with all the others...tell him if he wants his rigs packed to pack them himself.

He is obviously an idiot....

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[popsjumper 2]

peregrinerose:
"Though I admit, if I did pack something that was clearly my fault (uncocked pilot chute, for example), I would in a heartbeat volunteer to pay for the reserve repack."

Now THERE'S some integrity for you!
FWIW, my respect for you has gone up 23.5 notches.


But I still have to ask...what about the results of the reserve entanglement? You gonna pay for that?



fpritchett64:
Add me to the list.

To the best of my knowledge, I do not know of any other DZ that makes a packer pay for any mals or lost chutes. I think it stinks.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[peregrinerose 0]

Quote

But I still have to ask...what about the results of the reserve entanglement? You gonna pay for that?

I know how shitty I feel if a jumper has a hard open or line twists and what a total mess I was after the cutaway even though it wasn't my fault... I can't even imagine what I'd do in that situation. I take every pack job seriously... I check pilot chutes 3 times, brakes twice, and although I could do a quicker pack job than I do, I prefer to be damn sure I'm doing it right.

I would probably have to be institutionalized if that happened.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[fpritchett64 0]

Quote

Just out of curiosity where you just learning to pack on your AFF level 4 or had you already been packing for a while?

Either way, I think making you pay for that is a crock!

I had been packing for about a week when this happened. toggle came unstowed on opening causing a spinning line twist which I couldn't recover. So I chopped it away and then got yelled at because I was the first student at his dropzone that ever had to cut away.

This was before the main was found, a few hours later when we found it, he realized the mal and told me that was the only choice I had, but that since I packed it, I'd have to pay for the repack, etc.