Flaring Styles?

[floridadiver81 0]

I am a new guy as you can see by the numbers...and i have a question i thought about after watching numerous other people land. I was taught during the FJC to flare with the toggles directly in front of my body...which i have been doing...and i feel as though that is causign me not to stand up my landings...as with my hands is front of me..i cannot open up my range of balance. I havent tried bring the toggles outward then bring them down to my sides...but..i would think that doing that might make it easier to maintain balance on landing. What is the difference between flaring witht he toggle in front to bringing them out and down to the theighs? Does it make it easier to land with one way or the other? Thanks in advance!

"Age has absolutely nothing to do with knowledge, learning, respect, attitude, or personality." -yardhippie
"Fight the air, and the air will kick your ass!!! "-Specialkaye

[Scoop 0]

I think you should keep them in front of you for now. It prevents you inadvertantly steering your canopy if you flare unevenly as both toggles are in your field of vision, or at least thats what I was told and I agree it works. You shouldn't have much forward glide on a student canopy to need to find your balance as such, like if you were running off a landing. My landings were hit and miss and still are to a certain degree but its just something that comes with practice.

Take my advice with a pinch of salt but thats what I was told by my instructors so I imagine its probably the same thoughts behind your instructors instructions.

[floridadiver81 0]

Thanks for the reply..i didnt think of it like you explained..and it does make sense..that i might start a turn..which i know is not good at all!

"Age has absolutely nothing to do with knowledge, learning, respect, attitude, or personality." -yardhippie
"Fight the air, and the air will kick your ass!!! "-Specialkaye

[Scoop 0]

I've done it a few times on the student canopies and sworn it must have been a gust of wind. Its quite odd and quite scary to suddenly be turning on landing. Luckily it was just a case of tripping as trying to stand at funny angle and hurting my wrist a little as I leant out to stop the fall.

If you're jumping a tired old F111 student canopy don't try a staged or progressive flare either. It just doesn't work very well!

[floridadiver81 0]

Thanks for the pm. ill seek the advice if my instructors next time im out at the dz..which i was going to do anyway...i jsut wanted to get others perspectives.

"Age has absolutely nothing to do with knowledge, learning, respect, attitude, or personality." -yardhippie
"Fight the air, and the air will kick your ass!!! "-Specialkaye

[countzero 7]

"stand up landings have more to do with how high you are off the ground when you start your flare and how fast or slow you preform a complete flare stroke. than they do with the "style" of the flare."

this is what i was told by an experienced jumper after asking a similar question to yours, while we were talking about a rough landing i had.

diamonds are a dawgs best friend

[Floats18 0]

Don't forget wind conditions, canopy traffic and/or a swoop scoring platform which is heading right for your face

--- and give them wings so they may fly free forever

DiverDriver in Training

[sparkie 0]

As far as focussing on stand up landings goes: pay attention that you dont "reach" for the ground with one foot (as I did in the beginning).

the harness shifts if you do that and that also will result in a turn of some sort, plus, often when "reaching" one tends to raise the hands just a little resulting in more lift loss and in my case a sore ankle ;P. I was told to hang in the harness as long as possible before putting feet down to stand.

good luck ;P

[matt1215 0]

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As far as focussing on stand up landings goes: pay attention that you dont "reach" for the ground with one foot (as I did in the beginning).

I have to be careful not to do this, also not to reach for the ground with one hand when I think I'm losing my balance. The canopy tends to obey the input and turn into the ground.

I find I get my best landings flaring higher and slower than I think I need to, with my elbows tucked to my sides and my hands to the front.

• Quote

[popsjumper 2]

Students are taught to flare with the hands together in front of your body for several reasons:

1. Hands together gives you the best chance for an even, left-right, flare.
2. Visual cue that you are flaring evenly.
3. Ties in with the PLF position.
4. Helps prevent reaching for the ground with hands and legs on landing which makes any tilt even worse.
5. Balance comes from having the canopy over your head instead of off to the side.
6. Hands down the center of your body is stronger than out to the side.
7. Other.

If you feel off-balance on landing it's because your canopy is not directly over your head. Counter that with opposite toggle input. Leaning left? More right toggle (or less left) to keep the canopy over your head. Leaning right? More left toggle (or less right).

All you guys...the absolute worst thing you can do is reach for the ground if you are "off-balance". No hands reaching, no legs reaching. No PLF is taught with arms and legs out and reaching. You counter with toggles to keep the canopy over your head keeping your elbows in against the body.

Students: You see experienced canopy pilots with arms out to the side for several reasons...few of which you are adequately prepared for at this point in your learning curve (note: that is NOT a put-down). It may look cool to you right now, but it can, and has, hurt people doing it without adequate skills (one of which is being able to quickly recognize and quickly react to unlevel canopy flight on landing). Better safe than sorry, eh?

Your Instrcutor's mileage may vary.

To anyone else offering advice: Keep in mind that we are talking to students here...not pro canopy pilots.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[phoenixlpr 0]

Well, I seem to have uneven flare:

to the right

to the left

I wouldnt've noticed without these pictures.

[MagicGuy 0]

I reach for the ground with my right leg on just about every landing. I've always had stand up landings but I have definitely tweaked my ankle a couple times because I had an uneven flare.

Never thought it could be because I was reaching. Thanks for that! Ya learn something every day..

[popsjumper 2]

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Well, I seem to have uneven flare:
...
I wouldnt've noticed without these pictures.

And I somehow get the impression that you are just a little beyond "student" status.
Check your brake lines...one's longer than the other or quit doing X-wind landings.


But you do raise a fantastic point....video/pics is a great way to get a better grip on landing problems.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[phoenixlpr 0]

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LaughLaugh
And I somehow get the impression that you are just a little beyond "student" status.
Check your brake lines...one's longer than the other or quit doing X-wind landings.
LaughTongueWink

???

I don't have any landing problem. Those were good soft and stand up landings.

Ok. I have to admit, that landing on the snow is not easy. It never breaks if you think and it won't support your weight if you hope for that. I landed 2 out of 4 on my face. It hurts only my ego.

[popsjumper 2]

I was teasing you...that's what the laugh/tongue/wink was all about.

I gotta admire your big cajones for jumping snow, though, and that's no tease.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[DougH 270]

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Ok. I have to admit, that landing on the snow is not easy. It never breaks if you think and it won't support your weight if you hope for that. I landed 2 out of 4 on my face. It hurts only my ego.

Finally something we agree on. Landing on ice and snow this winter has humbled me at times. Landing on ice has to be my favorite, almost a guaranteed slide in on your ass tandem landing unless you get this just right.

To the OP: Stick with the simple stuff first. Any balance problems you have now are going to be worse when you can't see you hands and you start to flare unevenly.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[phoenixlpr 0]

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To the OP: Stick with the simple stuff first. Any balance problems you have now are going to be worse when you can't see you hands and you start to flare unevenly.

Landing on snow is not about balance.

If you step down with some speed you might stuck and fall on your chest/face or might slide on your ass as you have written.

[chaosreins 0]

my first aff instructor taught me to flare with arms/toggles in front, as you have been doing. after watching my first couple of landings - not on my feet - the dzo (who was helping on radio) suggested i flare with arms/toggles down to the side to give me more stability. my next landing was on my feet. the dzo and lead aff instructor then proceeded to have a lengthy debate whether women should flare in front or on the side - one claiming most women don't have the arm strength to perform a full "side flare" which can jeapardize the landing, and the other claiming a "front flare", while possibly enabling a more complete flare, puts you in an awkward body position for landing. both the dzo and instructor are women, btw.

i've found flaring to the side works best for me, even though i'm a small woman without impressive arm strength
i'd say try it both ways and see what you think!

[FallingDuck 0]

Once you get a few more jumps you might want to try with the side pull. Keep your hands close to the center until you get to your waist then separate to the sides of your legs. You will want to practice many times on the ground to prevent a very low turn. Remember not to progress faster than is comfortable. Good Luck.

[floridadiver81 0]

Thank you all for the advice and different strategies. Next time im at the dz im going to discuss this in detail with my instructors. Ive had the same AFFI for 2 of my 3 levels thus far..so im going to see if he would reccommend a variance in flaring...to maybe find a more comfortable style. Arm strength isnt an issue at all either!

"Age has absolutely nothing to do with knowledge, learning, respect, attitude, or personality." -yardhippie
"Fight the air, and the air will kick your ass!!! "-Specialkaye

[popsjumper 2]

Jason,
Somehow I get the impression that you will be searching for an answer that you want to hear rather than an answer that works and has been proven many times over for student jumpers.

Whatever you do, please do not set yourself up for reaching for the ground on landing. Arms out is asking for trouble until you get the hang of flaring in different wind directions and conditions.

"Asking for trouble" in that with your arms out, they are already in a position to reach and in that split-second of brain-fart when clear thinking is needed, you will probably not remember to continue to fly your canopy all the way to the ground and will reach to break your fall.

I suspect that you are uncomfortable with the arms-in position because you haven't mastered the art of landing yet and think maybe that's what is holding up your learning curve.

Having said all that, I defer to your instructors at Palatka.

Good luck, Jason.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Pulse 0]

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If you're jumping a tired old F111 student canopy don't try a staged or progressive flare either. It just doesn't work very well!

I will disagree with this to a point. I've always been a proponent of 'staged' flares even before it was set aside as a particular technique. It's like flaring an aircraft, you don't just do it all at once. During the flare you should constantly be taking in information as to what your canopy is doing in reaction to your input.
Quite simply, if you notice a huge decrease in your rate of descent, pause on the toggles. If you still need more 'lift', by all means, flare more. If your canopy starts going left add some right input and vice-versa. I know this all sounds 'simple' but things will get easier. As for keeping your hands in front of you, if it makes you feel better, go for it. But I've never quite understood it. Do student drivers look at the steering wheel when they're driving?

A bit of advice that was given to me and I've seen it help many was this. As you approach the ground, there is a point where things start to look 'normal'. As in, like they do when you're just standing on the ground. That's when you begin your flare. And make that flare smooooooooooooooth!

"Any language where the unassuming word fly signifies an annoying insect, a means of travel, and a critical part of a gentleman's apparel is clearly asking to be mangled."

[popsjumper 2]

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...As for keeping your hands in front of you, if it makes you feel better, go for it. But I've never quite understood it. Do student drivers look at the steering wheel when they're driving?

Hopefully not...hopefully the landing student is taught, and practices, peripheral vision while looking out about 45 degrees. Being able to SEE what's going on helps to later learn to FEEL what's going on.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[gearless_chris 1]

What I've noticed from videoing lots of landings is that most people reach with one foot (usually the right) to start a turn, then reach to catch themselves with the inside toggle, while letting up the outside toggle to balance themselves. They usually also complain about a sudden gust of wind at landing or that they were landing crosswind when they actually told the canopy to make the most agressive turn it can.

"If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane.

My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole.

[sparkie 0]

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What I've noticed from videoing lots of landings is that most people reach with one foot (usually the right) to start a turn, then reach to catch themselves with the inside toggle, while letting up the outside toggle to balance themselves. They usually also complain about a sudden gust of wind at landing or that they were landing crosswind when they actually told the canopy to make the most agressive turn it can.

That exactly what i did when i had around 25 jumps, hurts like hell on the ankle.

Lately I've added tensioning my legs a bit and pulling them a (very little) bit up, knees bent so my feet are trailing behind. This way I really hang in my rig and if flare is a tad late the knee joint is forced into the direction its made to go ;P