What to do when Jump Pilot isn't licensed???

[diverds 0]

Judy,
It sounds like you're willing to call the feds even though the pilot in question and others will know it was you. If this is correct, why not approach the pilot first and talk to him about your concerns. Give him an opportunity to fix the situation on his own before you involve the FAA. I think calling the FSDO should be your last option not your first.

-Dave

Skydive Radio

[JUDYJ 0]

Not a bad idea... if you knew the pilot.. he doesn't play by the same rules as most people.

IF you are going to be Stupid - you better be tough!

[JUDYJ 0]

sometimes I think this keeps the age old question going...

when does one cross the line?
are rules made for just a few or for everyone?
if there are exceptions then why not petition for the same?

if John doe is made to follow the rules.. why isn't Jane doe made to do the same? because she is older?? because she just knows what she's doing and we're to take her at her word?

I know that as a RN.. if someone somehow gets a job as a RN and say gives too much morphine to someone and causes their death by this act.. not only is the nurse in huge trouble but also the hospital that hired her.

so when I hire a pilot to take me to altitude am I now hiring a commercial pilot who has taken the time and trouble to do things right??? my life is in their hands

.. same as yours whenever your my paient. I went to school and I have the degree and license to be who I say I am..

IF you are going to be Stupid - you better be tough!

[recovercrachead 0]

I really dont understand this. I know of a sitution where there is a club and every student and exper. jumpers are a memeber before they jump. There is no profit being made and its allready been investgated and he can still fly so how about that!!

Track high, Pull LOW!!!

[icevideot 0]

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It's a USPA dropzone that takes money and operates taking anyone's money.

This came from an earlier post from Judy. The club idea was brought up by others as a possible exception. It doesn't sound to me like it is a club.

I don't have much practice interpreting the FAA regs but if it states the pilot must pay for at least half of the fuel at their own cost I am not sure how club membership qualifies on its own. If every member pays the equivalent of half the fuel that would make for an expensive club.

"... this ain't a Nerf world."

[tombuch 0]

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It's a USPA dropzone that takes money and operates taking anyone's money.

This came from an earlier post from Judy. The club idea was brought up by others as a possible exception. It doesn't sound to me like it is a club.

I don't have much practice interpreting the FAA regs but if it states the pilot must pay for at least half of the fuel at their own cost I am not sure how club membership qualifies on its own. If every member pays the equivalent of half the fuel that would make for an expensive club.

I am not a lawyer, but I did some quick digging through the Summit Aviation Computerized Aviation Reference Library, edition dated 25 May 2003. That is the most recent database I have handy, but it is NOT current or complete, and there may be additional material available with contrary opinions. The database includes selected legal interpretations from the office of the FAA Council. I did a search for “commercial pilot” and am attaching a selection of interpretations offered by the FAA. These interpretations do not address skydiving specifically, but they do deal with definitions of “compensation,” “hire,” “incidental,” and “common carriage.” I have attached a Word file with some of these interpretations. This should give readers some idea how the FAA interprets the regulations.

I have been teaching skydiving for more than 25 years. I am also a commercial pilot with an instrument rating in single and multiengine airplanes, and have private pilot privileges in gliders. It is my continuing understanding of the regulations that a skydiving operation holds out to the public, that is, they make their services available to a broad group of people (including students) and not just a very small or limited group. Simply requiring a “student” to be a “club member” does not reduce the “hold out.” Further, skydivers are paying for use of the airplane and thus the flight is conducted for compensation or hire, even if there is no profit involved. And, the flight cannot be considered incidental to the skydive since the skydive could not happen without the flight. In addition, the interests of the pilot and passengers are distinctly different in that the passengers wish to jump out of the airplane, and the pilot does not.

I hope this helps explain the regulations a bit.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[Tiger 0]

Judy, I'm an RN, too. I'm also a pilot and have been in business in aviation. I've had to deal with the FAA and others. I'd frankly be surprised if they didn't know what was going on and are turning a blind eye. Sometimes there's what we think is the right thing to do, and what's the right thing to do when living in the real world. We're both familiar with accountability being nurses. Every jumper that jumps with that pilot is accountable as a jumper to know if the pilot is properly licensed. They are making the choice to continue to jump and they're choosing to face what consequences might arise. Never underestimate the power of the Old Boy network.

[quade 4]

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So what are one's options when you learn that a pilot of a dropzone (and owner) isn't really licensed to fly jump planes.. just licensed as a "private pilot??"

Or are there exceptions and I just am not seeing where???

Isn't this illegal and like wrong??

CALL THE FAA. Period.

If it was simply a pilot and not the DZO, I would have talked to the DZO and given him a chance to straighten out his business, but since the DZO -IS- the pilot, clearly he has demonstrated a lack of disregard for the rules and no amount of "second chances" is going to clear that up.

If he's fudging on something as BASIC as proper licensing and doing such a poor job of it that even skydivers notice, then it's a pretty safe bet he's fudging in other areas. The entire operation needs a good going over.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[quade 4]

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In the USA, the FAA considers the flight time compensation. There is a case, dated August 21, 1997, where the pilot was found to be in violation for flying jumpers at a club with a private pilot's license. It is in the PIA handout from 2001. I'm sure you can google it.

If that is true then it is the only case I have ever heard of. What action was taken against this pilot?

I found nothing on google.

Pity I didn't see this thread before going to the DZ yesterday.

Back when I was a flight instructor, I used to keep a file of Interps from the FAA Office of Legal Councel; let me assure you that what I read in the original post in this thread is -absolutely- illegal (if the information posted is accurate).

I have the case on my book shelf.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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CALL THE FAA. Period.

I hope you contact the USPA every time you see a BSR violated. If someone dumps low and the DZSO does nothing, CALL USPA. Period.

[quade 4]

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CALL THE FAA. Period.

I hope you contact the USPA every time you see a BSR violated. If someone dumps low and the DZSO does nothing, CALL USPA. Period.

I have multiple USPA officials at my drop zone. I trust them to take care of situations that affect the safety of the entire drop zone and you can trust me when I tell you that if I EVER saw something as grossly negligent as what has been described in this thread it would go further than that.

But let's make a distiction here . . .

A skydiver doing a low pull is simply an idiot. If he goes in, it's his own dang fault and probably won't "impact" my life. The BSRs are NOT legal requirements (although the FAA does look at them under the guise of standard practices). There is no actual FAA regulation requiring a person to deploy at any altitude.

A -DZO/PILOT- with a flagrant disregard for the actual FAA regulations designed to keep multiple people safe needs to be dealt with to the full extent available.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[peckerhead 0]

Tom, I really do respect your opinions based on your experience and qualifications.

However you continue to use terms like "It is my continuing understanding of the regulations"

As a 25 year uspa member, 20+ year plus instructor, senior rigger, and student pilot I also have my own understanding of the regulations. The FARs are clear to me that you must have a commercial license if you are getting paid to transport passengers.

The question is does free stick time equal payment?

The only reason private pilots fly jumpers for free is because they can build hours. If they have good spots and don't fart in the plane we might even make them a sandwich. (is a sandwich payment?) It is a dirty thankless job but many small cessna clubs simply can't afford to pay pilots. If they do it is usually a token fee.

Where is it specific that free stick time is compensation? So far all I have heard is OPINIONS! One judge after an incident may agree while another may not. I honestly don't know of any private pilot that was penalized for flying jumpers.

I have known some great jump pilots that only had a private license, and I have also known some real scary pilots that had a commercial rating so I don't equate a piece of paper to safety.

Can you give me a credible reference that states clearly under every single circumstance that free stick time equals payment?

You could say a tandem student is paying for the aircraft ride or you could say the ride is free and all they pay for is the training, equipment, and the field to land in.

The rules are always up to interpretations, we never fly too close to clouds do we?

[quade 4]

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The rules are always up to interpretations, we never fly too close to clouds do we?

But this HAS been interpreted already by the FAA Office of Legal Counsel.

Yes, stick time DOES equal compensation in cases such as this and therefore requires a Commercial Certificate.

If it will make you feel better, I'll call Rick Cremer at the Long Beach FSDO on Tuesday and ask him to point us in the right direction on where that pesky interp might be hiding on-line these days.

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You could say a tandem student is paying for the aircraft ride or you could say the ride is free and all they pay for is the training, equipment, and the field to land in.

A defendant might try to argue that in a civil court, but it would NEVER hold water with the FAA. I can 100% guarantee that.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[mark 107]

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Can you give me a credible reference that states clearly under every single circumstance that free stick time equals payment?

FAR 61.113(a): "Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section, no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft."

The exceptions in paragraphs (b) through (g) would not apply to any skydiving operation I know of.

Mark

[peckerhead 0]

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But this HAS been interpreted already by the FAA Office of Legal Counsel.
Yes, stick time DOES equal compensation in cases such as this and therefore requires a Commercial Certificate.

Great, please post it in full detail. Also please clarify what you mean by "cases such as this"

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If it will make you feel better, I'll call Rick Cremer at the Long Beach FSDO on Tuesday and ask him to point us in the right direction on where that pesky interp might be hiding on-line these days.

I am not trying to "feel better" I am just trying to sort fact from opinion. Private pilots have been flying jumpers for years and many continue to do so thinking they are legal. If this is not true then lets have the final word. Also, lets hear what, if any, penalties there are for private pilots flying jumpers. I don't know of one single case where a private pilot was penalized in ANY WAY for flying jumpers.

If you have examples please post them.

Do all FSDO's agree on all interpretations? In other words will the local FSDO have the same opinion in Southern California as a local boy in Arkansas?

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You could say a tandem student is paying for the aircraft ride or you could say the ride is free and all they pay for is the training, equipment, and the field to land in.

A defendant might try to argue that in a civil court, but it would NEVER hold water with the FAA. I can 100% guarantee that.

[peckerhead 0]

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FAR 61.113(a): "Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section, no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft.

Exactly! Is free stick time compensation?

The pilot gets paid nothing.

I always tell students the jump is free, all they pay for is the training.

[Derekbox 0]

What happens if that plane were to crash - at no fault of the pilot mind you What if there is a tandem passenger on the plane or a student jumper on the plane? What happens then they sue the dropzone, the USPA, anyone and everyone they can? "The pilot was not qualified." Case over, we loose - WE ALL LOOSE. It doesnt matter what skill he has, what experience, Id imagine at this point, he is more than capable of doing what he is doing - but he wasnt legally qualified to do the job. As if the skydiving community does not have enough issues defending themselves against the powers that be, rouge dropzones operating with blatant disregard for the law stand to substancially hurt the sport as a whole. Its one thing when someone buys some weed, pulls low, jumps out of a 182 with your buddy flying... that is putting yourself in danger. When a pilot is breaking the rules, he is putting the lives of his passengers in danger, The passengers who voard the plane not believing that the person whose hands they put there lives in was qualified todo the job. What if an airline pilot were flying without a commercial license? A small airliner even, a commuter with say 20 passengers? How would you feel about that? What would you do if that plane crashed, and your parents/spouse/child died on that load err flight? We all have something to loose here...

[ltdiver 3]

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Back when I was a flight instructor, I used to keep a file of Interps from the FAA Office of Legal Councel; let me assure you that what I read in the original post in this thread is -absolutely- illegal (if the information posted is accurate).

I have the case on my book shelf.

Is this what you're looking for? Very very interesting read. May clear up some questions others have raised here about private pilots and compensation vs club members.

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:cLGgh097otkJ:www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/docs/AVIATION/5051.PDF+FAA+skydiving+pilots+compensation&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us&client=safari

**would have pulled up the .pdf file instead of the .html file, but the NTSB .pdf file seems to be broken at this time.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[recovercrachead 0]

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What happens if that plane were to crash - at no fault of the pilot mind you What if there is a tandem passenger on the plane or a student jumper on the plane? What happens then they sue the dropzone, the USPA, anyone and everyone they can? "The pilot was not qualified." Case over, we loose - WE ALL LOOSE. It doesnt matter what skill he has, what experience, Id imagine at this point, he is more than capable of doing what he is doing - but he wasnt legally qualified to do the job. As if the skydiving community does not have enough issues defending themselves against the powers that be, rouge dropzones operating with blatant disregard for the law stand to substancially hurt the sport as a whole. Its one thing when someone buys some weed, pulls low, jumps out of a 182 with your buddy flying... that is putting yourself in danger. When a pilot is breaking the rules, he is putting the lives of his passengers in danger, The passengers who voard the plane not believing that the person whose hands they put there lives in was qualified todo the job. What if an airline pilot were flying without a commercial license? A small airliner even, a commuter with say 20 passengers? How would you feel about that? What would you do if that plane crashed, and your parents/spouse/child died on that load err flight? We all have something to loose here...

NOTHING JUST NOTHING. The club I talked about had a student injured them self from a bad spot from a jumpmaster. The pilot was not lic. It was investigated then droped because it was a club case closed.

Track high, Pull LOW!!!

[Derekbox 0]

If its a true club, no tandems and the jumpers all know what is going on... then thats a different story. A student spraining an ankle on landing lies in the hands of the student and the instruction. Thats a different story. I based my argument on the assumption that the operator is taking up joy riders. Students are a huge grey area because there is really no way to comprehend what you are doing until you become an experience skydiver. If experienced jumpers go up on a plane, well they know the risks... that is a different stoy.

[mark 107]

It doesn't matter if the free time is compensation for the pilot. The airplane is being used for compensation or hire, so a private pilot may not be PIC.

Mark

[ltdiver 3]

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FAR 61.113(a): "Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section, no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft.

Exactly! Is free stick time compensation?

The pilot gets paid nothing.

I always tell students the jump is free, all they pay for is the training.

http://www.alameda-aero.com/news/newsletter/AACNewsletterApril2006.pdf

See the section in this article entitled: "Flying (Not) for Compensation or Hire". Got these boys into hot water and a 60 day suspension in the first narrative. Read further for a mention of skydiving operations and a reference to: "Administrators v. Rawlins, NTSB Order No. EA-4583"


ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[bob.dino 1]

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http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:cLGgh097otkJ:www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/docs/AVIATION/5051.PDF+FAA+skydiving+pilots+compensation&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us&client=safari

Very interesting read. The original decision was based on the fact that the pilot and skydivers did not share a common purpose (one wanted to fly; the others to jump), meaning that the shared-expenses exception did not apply.

On appeal, the decision was upheld on the basis that while all people on board the aircraft including the pilot paid an equal share of the costs of operating the aircraft, members of the public were allowed jump without becoming club members.

What isn't clear is whether the reasoning behind the original decision was allowed stand.

[Beerlight 0]

Yes, your jump pilot should have a commercial rating. Not sure why this guy your talking about all over the internet doesn't.

And wayyy back when it WAS common for a jump pilot to maybe have only a PPL. But these days it's not legal.

So, like Derek said you have a couple choices, please choose one and stop this thread please........

[ltdiver 3]

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Yes, your jump pilot should have a commercial rating. Not sure why this guy your talking about all over the internet doesn't.

Perhaps he's from the 'old school' and needs to be brought up to speed?

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And wayyy back when it WAS common for a jump pilot to maybe have only a PPL. But these days it's not legal.

Thanks for bringing an experienced jump pilot's understanding and knowledge into the thread.

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So, like Derek said you have a couple choices, please choose one and stop this thread please........

Learning is still going on. Why stop the learning? This thread's become more than just the first poster's query. It's advancing current (and future) skydivers understanding on this aspect of the sport. So often we think only of the jump out of the plane as what we're involved in. We need to remember it's more than this...from DZ operations to jump pilot's certification. Nice to dust off the old SIM and crack the books on the FAA again.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon