Are you competent?

[Legs 0]

No-one wants you to stop thinking.......In fact we want you to start thinking and stop feeling so hard done by.

Keep skydiving, learn, and become the best.........

With love in Christ

[NWFlyer 2]

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Maybe I should just stop skydiving...

Nope! They just want you to stop questioning (thinking.)

Please think. Please ask questions. Ask 10 different experienced skydivers the same question, "Why should I do X this way and not that way?"

Chances are that 9 of 10 will give you a similar answer, and it'll probably involve a pretty solid reason that came out of research and experience.

One of 10 might agree with you.

You can decide that you and he/she are smarter than everyone else. That's one way of "thinking."

Or you can decide that maybe those other 9 have a point.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[aguila 0]

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Maybe I should just stop skydiving...

Nope! They just want you to stop questioning (thinking.)

Please think. Please ask questions. Ask 10 different experienced skydivers the same question, "Why should I do X this way and not that way?"

Chances are that 9 of 10 will give you a similar answer, and it'll probably involve a pretty solid reason that came out of research and experience.

One of 10 might agree with you.

You can decide that you and he/she are smarter than everyone else. That's one way of "thinking."

Or you can decide that maybe those other 9 have a point.

I agree Krisanne! The most you ask (question, think, etc), the most you learn. Fortunately, I have had excellent instructors who have taught me a lot. I ask a lot.

But there are others not so fortunate, I have seen skydivers who do not dare to ask or express their ideas because they have had bad experiences when they dared to ask.

Others are strict rule-followers who usually freeze when they find something unexpected because they cannot find any rule to follow. That is unsafe. Skydiving also requires mental agility and mental agility comes from using your brain.

While most rules are right for a given environment, when the environment changes the rule might not be valid.

A high number of jumps does not make you a good skydiver such as a high number of patients does not make you a good doctor. HMO is an example: lots of patients. How do they call HMO? Higher Malpractice Occurrence. Each jump gives us the opportunity to learn but it does not assure we learn.

A good skydiver is that who learns from all his/her and others experiences in such a way that s/he can do what s/he wants to do without jeopardizing others. It also requieres the capacity to form an opinion by distinguishing and evaluating: That is judgement.

Usually these skydivers can transmit their knowledge in a such way that most people will trust them no matter how stubborn the students are. They have the capacity to be the best Instructors and of course their competence is well ahead from those whose only argument is attacking when “less experienced” skydivers question any thing.

That is something DZ owners should keep in mind.

One last word in regard to rules: We all have watched the natgeo channel. Do you remember the Seconds from Disaster program? Many of these catastrophes were caused by blindly following the rules. Could you blame them? No. They followed the rules. But how many lives could have been saved if someone had dared to question the rules?

I have a feeling you could make an excellent instructor
Blue Skies Krisanne!

Edited to add judgment (suggested by kallend)

Gonzalo

It cannot be done really means I do not know how to do it ... yet

[kallend 2,027]

You missed the third factor - judgment. Skill and experience may not be enough to save you from bad judgment.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[aguila 0]

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You missed the third factor - judgment. Skill and experience may not be enough to save you from bad judgment.

Thank you! I will try to edit it!

Blue Skies!

I coud add it! Thank you again. That is really important!

Gonzalo

It cannot be done really means I do not know how to do it ... yet

[argyle 0]

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You missed the third factor - judgment. Skill and experience may not be enough to save you from bad judgment.

I agree, but hopefully good judgement comes at least partly from experience. The problem that I was getting at is that it's good judgement in a flash. You really can't take time to debate with yourself. That takes experience.

Judgement is a tough one. Years ago I went to traffic school for too many speeding tickets. They showed us a film about your driving personality. You were supposed to drive with adult-like behavior, not child-like behavior. Good luck with that one. Good judgement in a can.

Thanks for the comments.

Art

[stratostar 5]

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Ok, now I understand!
Because I only have 80 jumps, 1 year of experience, and I'm just 19 years old, I know nothing and my opinion doesn't matter.

Not quite right.

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Because I only have 80 jumps, 1 year of experience,

That is a good start and more then most people.

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and I'm just 19 years old

Yea I remember when I was invinciable too.

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I know nothing and my opinion doesn't matter.

Well you may or may not "know nothing" as far as life goes, but as far as skydiving gose you only know enough to cover the basics and survive it if your lucky.

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Maybe I should just stop skydiving...

I would say you should go ahead and take your bat and ball and go the fuck home till you grow up a little more. Please come on back when you can act like an adult, learn something. Maybe you get treated the way you do at the DZ because you act like a 100 jump wonder who knows it all, just like a 16 year old who just got a driver license and drives like one too, at least that is how your posts in this thread have come off.

You and others may feel "more experianced" don't want to hang or jump with you. Well people who have been at this for a long time have seen guys like you come and go, sadly a lot leave in body bags because they throw the rules out or never followed them in the first place, becuase they knew better then everyone else. So it is easier to offer the good advice, sit back and watch as it is totally disrgarded and they become one of the broken or dead.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[NWFlyer 2]

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Others are strict rule-followers who usually freeze when they find something unexpected because they cannot find any rule to follow. That is unsafe. Skydiving also requires mental agility and mental agility comes from using your brain.

While most rules are right for a given environment, when the environment changes the rule might not be valid.

Do me a favor. Go read this post. In it you will see a combination of the following:

1) Rote action that I engaged in because it is what I was taught to do, over and over and over again and because I've also had it drilled in my head that your decision altitude is NOT the time to continue thinking about the problem. The decision altitude is time to take action, and that action was automatic because I listened to those who were more expeirenced than me and didn't say "well, if I keep thinking I can fix this."

2) Mistakes. I made 'em, and my second (the first was a likely packing error) was not recognizing the (likely) malfunction above my head. I now have EXPERIENCE to know what that malfuction looks like and how to respond to counter it. But I also could have done better at getting the knowledge from those who have more experience than me before I was forced to get experienced myself.

3) Thinking and problem-solving to deal with an unfamiliar situation. Trust me, I'm a fan of this approach. But only when "the rules" didn't work.

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They have the capacity to be the best Instructors and of course their competence is well ahead from those whose only argument is attacking when “less experienced” skydivers question any thing.

Now go read this post. It was written before I even had my A license. Not that I'm that much more experienced now, two years later, but I think I understand where a lot of the "listen more than you talk" mantra comes from with respect to newbies. And I've been extremely fortunate to have several of the highly experienced folks in that thread become friends and mentors in the time since that post was written. Not because I blindly followed the rules, but because I listen. And because I drink good beer, but that's a story for another day.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[Thijs 0]

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I would say you should go ahead and take your bat and ball and go the fuck home till you grow up a little more. Please come on back when you can act like an adult, learn something. Maybe you get treated the way you do at the DZ because you act like a 100 jump wonder who knows it all, just like a 16 year old who just got a driver license and drives like one too, at least that is how your posts in this thread have come off.

You and others may feel "more experianced" don't want to hang or jump with you. Well people who have been at this for a long time have seen guys like you come and go, sadly a lot leave in body bags because they throw the rules out or never followed them in the first place, becuase they knew better then everyone else. So it is easier to offer the good advice, sit back and watch as it is totally disrgarded and they become one of the broken or dead.

I just went back and read my first post.

I don't see where I say that I don't follow the rules, or that I discard good advice.

Example. Here in Belgium you can only jump with a camera if you have 200 jumps. You can do two things with this rule. You can follow it, or you can interpret it.
What is the philophosy behind this rule? Cameraflying poses extra risks then ordinary jumping and people who are not ready for camera jumping shouldn't jump with a camera.
But! It is not because you have 200 jumps that you are ready for jumping with a camera. So, instead of putting on a camera on your 200th jump, you should go and talk to camera people first.
Note that if you don't talk or think about this, you are perfectly in line with the rules!

The same applies for canopy control. Last summer a jumper at our dz crashed hard into the ground when he started his front riser turn way to low. He did everything by the rules, still, jumping is finished for him.

Another jumper at our dz. 1000 jumps. About 10 years experience. Jumps normally a sabre 150. All the sudden he starts demojumping 80 to 90 sqft cross-braced canopies.
For his jump numbers he followed rules, but, what he did wasn't really smart jumping. Lucky for him he got away without injuries. His landings were, well, entertaining...

It gets really 'interesting' when even the instructors start breaking 'the rules'. Rule here is that no jumping is allowed when you don't have ground visibility below 3000ft AGL. Couple of weeks ago, cloud base at 800ft, ground visible at 1500ft. They still jumped... (and half of that load were instructor, TI, AFFI...)
For me this is not about breaking the rules or not, it is in my opinion not smart jumping. Period.
Naturally, I think twice before asking those people for advice, and I think twice about what they say.

Yes, I have an opinion about the rules, about the regulations and about our trainingmethods. What on earth is wrong with having an opinion and discussing about this? Even if I only have 80 jumps and just because other students don't talk about these kind of things.
I don't say I'm right. If I'm wrong, talk to me and say WHY I'm wrong. I'm so tired of the attitude: "You're wrong, it is like this because I say it and I have more jumps then you."

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Not quite right.

So, instead of just telling me this, tell me why.
Common attitude at my dz.
Some time ago there was an online discussion on our public board about jumping small and fast canopies and about the regulations about this.
I gave my opinion and I got all kinds of shit over me. Other jumper with 4000+ jumps had about the same opinion as me, but he didn't get the shit over him. Life is fair, isn't it.

Maybe I get treated the way you describe, because I'm not a sheep, that nicely follows the rest. At some point in time I get bored of trying to make a serious discussion with some-one more experienced, if I don't get a serious response.

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Yea I remember when I was invinciable too.

Oh, how nice
I'm not invincible (you want to see the pictures of my downwind adventure when I met a concrete pillar? That was my third jump. and that downwinder was definitely not intentionally!). I never had the "I'm invincible" feeling. In everything I do I'm extremely careful.

I made my point I think.
Rules are just rules. Without a good interpretation they will not get their wanted outcome.

Sincerely.

[Legs 0]

Thijs

Your latest post makes more sense than your earlier post.

I am concerned that you say:

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Last summer a jumper at our dz crashed hard into the ground when he started his front riser turn way to low. He did everything by the rules, still, jumping is finished for him.

Surely you know that one of the most important rules of canopy piloting is to land under a level canopy. This guy turned low, broke the rules and payed heavy for it.

Yes experienced people break the rules too, but they tend to pay heavy for it cos they tend to be on less forgiving kit.

You also say

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Another jumper at our dz. 1000 jumps. About 10 years experience. Jumps normally a sabre 150. All the sudden he starts demojumping 80 to 90 sqft cross-braced canopies.
For his jump numbers he followed rules, but, what he did wasn't really smart jumping. Lucky for him he got away without injuries. His landings were, well, entertaining...

There are also advisory notes on downsizing, I belief its 15% at a time. (I may be wrong). Again this guy broke the recognised best advise. It is worrying that this is entertainment.

You go on to say:

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Maybe I get treated the way you describe, because I'm not a sheep, that nicely follows the rest. At some point in time I get bored of trying to make a serious discussion with some-one more experienced, if I don't get a serious response.

I think alot of people sneered at your post ending "Maybe I should give up skydiving?" because it sounded arogant and pubescent. I think many of the responses you recieved encouraging you to stay in the sport were very kind and serious attempts at addressing this percieved attitude. However many posters (If like me) thought the same as the most basest response you recieved.

If you want a serious discussion, there are plenty of people here willing to help, but demonstrate attitude by throwing your toys out of your pram and you will get attitude back.

Good luck with your skydiving future....I sincerely mean this.

With love in Christ

[Thijs 0]

Thanks for your post.

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It is worrying that this is entertainment.

Just to make clear. I'm not saying that it is entertaining to see people hit the ground and get hurt. He never had a bad landing while jumping these canopies (atleast, the ones I saw). But, you could clearly see that he was not in control of the canopy. The canopy was flying with him, instead of the other way.

While standing at the side of the landing area it was amongst jumpers more like: "Let's see how X lands that canopy again."

Everbody knew he wasn't doing smart things. The only person who didn't understand this, was X himself. But as pointed out so many times, sometimes people only want to hear what they want to hear.

Obvious, seeing someone hitting the ground painfully is not entertaining.

Thijs