elfanie 0 #26 October 1, 2004 Quote Look at SM1's post, and consider what he says. You're already outside of what you practiced. You're already having to think, because you've already determined that you couldn't get the main container open. Hey Wendy... While I don't entirely disagree with what you're saying...the above doesn't really hold true with my personal experience. What I mean is...when I had my hard pull - as soon as I thought, "Shit, do something!" everything else happened without thought. I looked red, grabbed red, looked silver, pulled red, pulled silver - all in about .5 seconds of time. On the ground, I said, "I don't remember even pulling my handles...I thought, "oh shit, do something" and I was under a reserve...I don't remember clearly pulling them..." I was told, "That was because the decision of what to do if something went wrong had been decided a year ago..." and I found that to ring very true. It wasn't like I fell out of my routine and therefore had to think about things.. it was more like, I feel out of my routine and therefore everything happened automatically. There was no need to think...just act. I was shaken up enough that on the ground I said, "My reserve was open so fast, I think the RSL kicked it out before I could.." with my main still on my back? heh...yeah....right... anyways..my point was that as soon as I felt that "CRAP!" feeling and knew I was in trouble...that's when I more or less STOPPED thinking and just responded...did what I was trained to do exactly as I had practiced it hundreds and hundreds of times... Not having the jump numbers of decades of experience, I still wonder if having multiple responses possible would decrease reaction time and make you (general 'you') HAVE to think...slowing you down? You don't think so? -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattjw916 2 #27 October 1, 2004 QuoteDoes he have a lower D lic. then 5476? yes... QuoteI don't know who this "Big Al" is or what he been feeding you Al Gramando... perhaps you have heard of him. It is a shame that a lot of the experienced people here are incapable making their points without resulting to personal attacks... or the "your opinion is different than mine so you are a crater waiting to happen." comment that people with X*1000 jumps here make. Generally it is my experience that if you line up 10 people with over 5 years in sport and ask them a question, you will get 10 different answers. (The poll results above more than prove my point.) I also feel sorry for people that think DZ.com is a good gauge for how relative newcomers are treated at the drop zone. And some people wonder why USPA membership is down as of late... NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,452 #28 October 1, 2004 Quotethe above doesn't really hold true with my personal experience I guess experiences differ. I've had 2 over the years (about 25 years apart), and went straight for silver each time. But it clearly worked for you, and that's good. As I did when I had a PC in tow. BUT: when I had a PC in tow, I had Tapewells, which would have meant pieces of riser flapping around loose, and taking the risk of the pilot chute was less. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skytribe 17 #29 October 1, 2004 If you've started the deployment sequence, then cutaway first. Say you go to start the pull the pullout and drop the pud. You initiated a deployment sequence and therefore you have an unknown - So pull the cutaway and reserve.... Its a total malfunction as the container is theoretically closed. If you simply cannot find the handle - then you have a known condition - and therefore you can pull the reserve without a cutting away the main.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #30 October 1, 2004 QuoteGenerally it is my experience You need to realize that you don't have any "experience" and are not in a position to be giving advise to student jumpers. It was not meant a personal attack but statement of fact.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #31 October 1, 2004 Both of you cut it out. Matt, it may be a good idea to listen more than you talk at this point. Sparky, anyone can look at your relative jump numbers and make their own decisions on who to listen to. Stop going after him. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #32 October 1, 2004 QuoteMy instructors …. who I trust explicitely ….. said absolutely right...you touch it, you chop it...doesn't matter if anything is out or not. So, if you went through AFF and did PRCTs, did you cutaway and pull reserve then?? I doubt that. The only reasons I can see for teaching a cutaway-pull reserve technique for a total malfunction is that the instructor thinks the jumper is a simpleton and cannot handle skipping the cutaway and going directly for the reserve or it takes more time to teach the go for the reserve right away for a total. What purpose does cutting away a total have? The justification of cutaway-pull reserve for a total is that the jumper does the same thing for both total and partial malfunctions. That is 'dumbing down' of jumpers. QuoteWe lost someone about a year ago with a PC in tow (I know...that's a partial, but still) that went straight silver. Watching the video...most agree that he would have been 100% fine if he'd chopped first...not chopping killed him. That is a bold conclusion. There are just as many fatalities or entanglements with or without cutting away a pilot chute in tow. It's split pretty close to 50-50 crap shoot over the years. QuoteMy instructor explained that the only reason there is even a bit of controversy over this is because there was ONE fatality of a well known jumper who had chopped in which things got tangled up and it was questions that it might have been better in his one freaky instance not to have chopped...and thus the debate began. There have been many more instances. Cutaway-pull reserve giving entanglement. Pull reserve giving an entanglement. It's split pretty much 50-50. QuoteI had a hard pull...tried 3 times (yup, dumb!)...chopped and pulled silver. If it happened again, I'd do the same thing. it all seems to come down to training - follow your training. Quote While I don't entirely disagree with what you're saying...the above doesn't really hold true with my personal experience. What I mean is...when I had my hard pull - as soon as I thought, "Shit, do something!" everything else happened without thought. I looked red, grabbed red, looked silver, pulled red, pulled silver - all in about .5 seconds of time. On the ground, I said, "I don't remember even pulling my handles...I thought, "oh shit, do something" and I was under a reserve...I don't remember clearly pulling them..." I was told, "That was because the decision of what to do if something went wrong had been decided a year ago..." and I found that to ring very true. It wasn't like I fell out of my routine and therefore had to think about things.. it was more like, I feel out of my routine and therefore everything happened automatically. There was no need to think...just act. I was shaken up enough that on the ground I said, "My reserve was open so fast, I think the RSL kicked it out before I could.." with my main still on my back? heh...yeah....right... anyways..my point was that as soon as I felt that "CRAP!" feeling and knew I was in trouble...that's when I more or less STOPPED thinking and just responded...did what I was trained to do exactly as I had practiced it hundreds and hundreds of times... Not having the jump numbers of decades of experience, I still wonder if having multiple responses possible would decrease reaction time and make you (general 'you') HAVE to think...slowing you down? You don't think so? You are not supposed to have multiple responses to the same scenario. You are supposed to know exactly what procedure you want to do if such-n-such scenario presents itself. I like to see new jumpers like thelem ask about several versions on how to respond to a situation than see a blind faith in all that is taught. Some teachings are derived from expedient pedagogy. Quote Al Gramando... perhaps you have heard of him. Yes, I met Al in 1993 when he paid our entry fees and gave us a Skydive Chambersburg T-Shirt for taking first in Intermediate 8-way at Nationals. Say 'Hi and Thank-you' to him for me. I doubt Al goes around claiming to have authored the AFF program. I believe he did serve on the USPA BOD when the old SIM Sec. 3-3 was converted to the ISP, Sec. 4 of the current SIM. Maybe he was talking about authoring the ISP text in the SIM? Next time you see Al, you might ask him to show you the first couple of pages of the IRM AFF section. Section B is what you want to read. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #33 October 1, 2004 QuoteBoth of you cut it out. Matt, it may be a good idea to listen more than you talk at this point. Sparky, anyone can look at your relative jump numbers and make their own decisions on who to listen to. Stop going after him. Yes Bill. Some targets are just hard to pass up.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #34 October 1, 2004 Total=Put the reserve out. Waiting is death on a stick.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflyfree 0 #35 October 2, 2004 I got a pull out, so in case of a total...try one more time..and just go for the silver, those who hessitate shal hinherit the earth. Felipe-- Blue Skies NO FEARS, NO LIMITS, NO MONEY... "A Subitánea et Improvísa Morte, Líbera nos, Domine." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybill 22 #36 October 2, 2004 Hi Chuck, 10-4!! BTDD case closed!SCR-2034, SCS-680 III%, Deli-out Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattjw916 2 #37 October 2, 2004 Finally a voice of reason from within the din of the masses... QuoteYes, I met Al in 1993 when he paid our entry fees and gave us a Skydive Chambersburg T-Shirt for taking first in Intermediate 8-way at Nationals. Say 'Hi and Thank-you' to him for me. I doubt Al goes around claiming to have authored the AFF program. I believe he did serve on the USPA BOD when the old SIM Sec. 3-3 was converted to the ISP, Sec. 4 of the current SIM. Maybe he was talking about authoring the ISP text in the SIM? Next time you see Al, you might ask him to show you the first couple of pages of the IRM AFF section. Section B is what you want to read. When I get home I will whip out my ground school guide and see what exactly he contributed to re: the AFF program or ISP since it was listed in his bio. It is possible I misread or misinterpreted what he said. In any case he certainly is a great guy with a great personality even when he chews you out for making a n00b mistake.NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #38 October 2, 2004 I thought the "Big Al" he was talking about was Al Gore, same guy that invented the internet. There, that'll kill this thread. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #39 October 3, 2004 Who is Al Gore? My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
