Kynan1 0
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There are many factors that add up to experience.For instance I would put more value in something coming from someone with a couple hundred jumps who has been around for a few years that someone with 500 jumps in 6 months. 500 perfect jumps don't make for experience.Where you are wrong is that the swooping is more dangerous.What people are trying to say here is it's exactly the same as what you are talking about.Hell someone even posted video.
My dz.com name is my name, and Brian is written on my rig's mudflap, so if I give advice on here, I'm not trying to hide who I am at the DZ.
I have little doubt that you're backsliding in a sit, and you're probably moving around on your head, you're just not sure which direction unless you're almost completely on your back or belly.
It's not that easy to fall straight down and know you're fallling straight down unless you're docking on a base of experienced freeflyers, or you're a tunnel rat.
I don't personally have a problem with newbies trying to learn to freefly on their head or in a sit, we all started somewhere. If someone is giving you advice and talking about drift, they're looking out for you and others, and if they're on the same plane, they're also thinking about their own safety.
I've already had enough people join my skydive who weren't invited and didn't think there was any problem tracking straight up or down jump run the entire time, or didn't realize how much movement they had in a sit or on their head or even on their belly or back. I'm willing to give a little unwanted or wanted advice to people who I'm not sure know the effects that drift and proper exit order and separation for everyone's safety.
I remember how it felt to have 100 jumps, and I did think that I knew everything. It honestly wasn't for at least a few hundred more that I realized how little I knew, and how much more there is to learn.
Yes your jump numbers don't mean everything, I've jumped with people who were pretty good freeflyers at 50 jumps and people with more than 10,000 jumps who didn't have much freefly experience. Some of us try to learn from the mistakes of others, and pass on knowledge we've gained to our fellow jumpers, whether they want it or not.
Yes skydiving is dangerous no matter what you do. Freeflying, swooping, or anything besides a solo belly high pull with a Navigator increases the risk. We should do all we can to minimize the risk of the things we partake in. I do a lot of risky things in the sport myself, when I feel I'm ready. We do this for fun, and trying new things keeps it fun for me.
I have little doubt that you're backsliding in a sit, and you're probably moving around on your head, you're just not sure which direction unless you're almost completely on your back or belly.
It's not that easy to fall straight down and know you're fallling straight down unless you're docking on a base of experienced freeflyers, or you're a tunnel rat.
I don't personally have a problem with newbies trying to learn to freefly on their head or in a sit, we all started somewhere. If someone is giving you advice and talking about drift, they're looking out for you and others, and if they're on the same plane, they're also thinking about their own safety.
I've already had enough people join my skydive who weren't invited and didn't think there was any problem tracking straight up or down jump run the entire time, or didn't realize how much movement they had in a sit or on their head or even on their belly or back. I'm willing to give a little unwanted or wanted advice to people who I'm not sure know the effects that drift and proper exit order and separation for everyone's safety.
I remember how it felt to have 100 jumps, and I did think that I knew everything. It honestly wasn't for at least a few hundred more that I realized how little I knew, and how much more there is to learn.
Yes your jump numbers don't mean everything, I've jumped with people who were pretty good freeflyers at 50 jumps and people with more than 10,000 jumps who didn't have much freefly experience. Some of us try to learn from the mistakes of others, and pass on knowledge we've gained to our fellow jumpers, whether they want it or not.
Yes skydiving is dangerous no matter what you do. Freeflying, swooping, or anything besides a solo belly high pull with a Navigator increases the risk. We should do all we can to minimize the risk of the things we partake in. I do a lot of risky things in the sport myself, when I feel I'm ready. We do this for fun, and trying new things keeps it fun for me.
fonz 0
Just feel the need to add my 2 cents...
I think that everybody should listen to advice from anyone. If you're low on experience, just listen and then take it up with an instructor. If you're experienced enough you can make your own assessment about the valididty of the advice and possibly point out that the advice is wrong or even dangerous.
Judge advice by the content, not by the person offering it.
In any case, it never hurts to FIRST listen and THEN decide what to do with it. Dismiss it, discuss it, ignore it, accept it, whatever. But at least hear what they have to say and then take it from there.
Alphons
I think that everybody should listen to advice from anyone. If you're low on experience, just listen and then take it up with an instructor. If you're experienced enough you can make your own assessment about the valididty of the advice and possibly point out that the advice is wrong or even dangerous.
Judge advice by the content, not by the person offering it.
In any case, it never hurts to FIRST listen and THEN decide what to do with it. Dismiss it, discuss it, ignore it, accept it, whatever. But at least hear what they have to say and then take it from there.
Alphons
And five hundred entirely naked women dropped out of the sky on parachutes.
-- The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
-- The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
QuoteThe funnies thing about the head down too early topic is if you look at statistics, swooping is hell more dangerous...even for someone with thousands of jumps. It's widely done, so it's no big deal.
Most of the risk of swooping is to the person doing it. Others have at least some steps to mitigate the risk from an errant swooper.
It's nearly impossible to mitigate the risk of a head down/sit down/tracker who is flying across jump run. Other than to ask he or she to stop doing it.
billvon 2,991
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>Sorry, someone can have 400 jumps and be a horrid skydiver.
Right. But on average, someone with 400 jumps is a better skydiver than someone with 40. That's why organizers use jump numbers as a "first cut" of experience. Works OK.
>The funnies thing about the head down too early topic is if you
>look at statistics, swooping is hell more dangerous . . .
?? If you look at the statistics, swooping is also more dangerous than jumping without a rig. After all, how many people died last year from jumping without a rig? The fact that no one died doing it was not due to its safety, but rather to the fact that very, very few people do it.
>I don't go around telling people, you really shouldn't swoop, it only
>adds to the danger of the freefall experience...
Someday you will. It's a process we all go through. You'll see someone who is so out of control that they are going to kill themselves and/or hurt someone else, and you'll talk to them because you don't want to see them in a wheelchair like another friend of yours. And they won't listen. They'll tell you "hey, I know it might be dangerous for _some_ people, but I have exceptional canopy skills." And you'll have to watch another friend of yours die.
Or you may luck out and they may listen; you might well save someone's life. That's why it's worth it to try, even if 75% of the time people can't/won't listen to your advice.
Right. But on average, someone with 400 jumps is a better skydiver than someone with 40. That's why organizers use jump numbers as a "first cut" of experience. Works OK.
>The funnies thing about the head down too early topic is if you
>look at statistics, swooping is hell more dangerous . . .
?? If you look at the statistics, swooping is also more dangerous than jumping without a rig. After all, how many people died last year from jumping without a rig? The fact that no one died doing it was not due to its safety, but rather to the fact that very, very few people do it.
>I don't go around telling people, you really shouldn't swoop, it only
>adds to the danger of the freefall experience...
Someday you will. It's a process we all go through. You'll see someone who is so out of control that they are going to kill themselves and/or hurt someone else, and you'll talk to them because you don't want to see them in a wheelchair like another friend of yours. And they won't listen. They'll tell you "hey, I know it might be dangerous for _some_ people, but I have exceptional canopy skills." And you'll have to watch another friend of yours die.
Or you may luck out and they may listen; you might well save someone's life. That's why it's worth it to try, even if 75% of the time people can't/won't listen to your advice.
kallend 2,026
QuoteJust feel the need to add my 2 cents...
I think that everybody should listen to advice from anyone. If you're low on experience, just listen and then take it up with an instructor. If you're experienced enough you can make your own assessment about the valididty of the advice and possibly point out that the advice is wrong or even dangerous.
Judge advice by the content, not by the person offering it.
Alphons
Unfortunately that process leads to people accepting the advice they want to hear and rejecting advice they don't like, regardless of the qualifications of the person giving it.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
Fast 0
Quote[replyI have made mistakes in judgement myself but at least I am willing to learn from the countless people who have died skydiving.
They arent countless....we've known every one of them, why they died...the causes, the whys and wherefores. Some people just wont listen to facts and after a time it becomes pointless to have the same conversations with the same people...different faces....year after year.
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that it was insignificant. Meant more in terms of the sheer number of people that die doing this. Given the participation levels it really is a lot and in my mind people who aren't willing to realize that are just kidding themselves.
~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka
Orange1 0
well, i think its clear that kynan considers most of the answers in this thread to be equivalent to the "random advice givers" he so dislikes. lucky for you all he can't check for tampax wrappers in your trashcans 
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
Kynan1 0
Quotewell, i think its clear that kynan considers most of the answers in this thread to be equivalent to the "random advice givers" he so dislikes. lucky for you all he can't check for tampax wrappers in your trashcans
I almost fell off my chair on that one.
Kynan1 0
QuoteWhen http://skydivingmovies.com comes back up, search for and check out a video called crash.wmv...it was posted in the last month or so. Watch how fast someone head down can zoom across the sky and potentially kill someone else.
The reality is that head down is far more dangerous for other skydivers than you appear to believe it is.
Checked out that clip.
http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/uploads/crash.wmv
That was pretty wild. I would never attempt a 4 way head down, unless I was pretty solid with a 2 way first. If I jump with someone on a head down exit, I let them know I'm working on it and don't have many jumps. If the head down goes quirky, I switch to a sit. At this point, I prefer jumping with only one other person.
Good plan.
fonz 0
QuoteQuoteJudge advice by the content, not by the person offering it.
Unfortunately that process leads to people accepting the advice they want to hear and rejecting advice they don't like, regardless of the qualifications of the person giving it.
I think you've got a point there. Personally, I try to take great care not to fall into that trap, but I guess the human mind can work like that.
I still don't agree with the OP though.
Alphons
And five hundred entirely naked women dropped out of the sky on parachutes.
-- The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
-- The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
lili 0
at the risk of being another random advice giver, or asking for random advice here's a quick question for you...
Is it not a good idea to have a solid (is not moving around and in control) position that you can switch to when the head down does go "quirky" so that you are not endangering the other person/people on your jump by carrying on the "quirkiness"?
Lx
Is it not a good idea to have a solid (is not moving around and in control) position that you can switch to when the head down does go "quirky" so that you are not endangering the other person/people on your jump by carrying on the "quirkiness"?
Lx
Kynan1 0
QuoteIs it not a good idea to have a solid (is not moving around and in control) position that you can switch to when the head down does go "quirky" so that you are not endangering the other person/people on your jump by carrying on the "quirkiness"?
Is that a trick question?
Of course it you want a solid sit fly to rely on, if your head down doesn't go well. I need to get my legs out more and straighten my back, to keep from back sliding. Working on that also and not jumping in any big groups either.
pds 0
dude, getting talked to is ALWAYS a good thing. period. to bitch about it shows a dangerous degree of immaturity. dangerous to you and to others.
get some one on one with a ff coach and get a thumbs up on your desired skills. you will feel better about your flying and pose less of a danger to those you might want to fly with.
>Perhaps if people heard this girl on her period yapping at me, you'd all understand where I was coming from.
>So, you could argue a head down is safer than a sit...for drifting purposes. No doubt, it's faster and easier to lose altitude awareness, just a little important as well.
as bv said, one could argue anything. your weak attempts to shore up your position are specious and inane and if you haven't noticed, not one experienced jumper on this board has let you get away with it. wake up. more than your life depends on it.
get some one on one with a ff coach and get a thumbs up on your desired skills. you will feel better about your flying and pose less of a danger to those you might want to fly with.
>Perhaps if people heard this girl on her period yapping at me, you'd all understand where I was coming from.
>So, you could argue a head down is safer than a sit...for drifting purposes. No doubt, it's faster and easier to lose altitude awareness, just a little important as well.
as bv said, one could argue anything. your weak attempts to shore up your position are specious and inane and if you haven't noticed, not one experienced jumper on this board has let you get away with it. wake up. more than your life depends on it.
namaste, motherfucker.
PeterB 0
Should be a pretty simple thing to get an experienced freeflyer to vouch for you.
That's how we've done it in the past. Someone new to HD says he/she got the shit down, an experienced freeflyer goes for a few checout jumps with said person.
Later at the bonfire, the truth comes out. Either that someone is full of shit and everyone knows or the person is legit and everyone knows.
So far with the three people I've done this with I am 3-0. 3 bullshitters, 0 legit. Or maybe 2.5 - 0.5, one 150 jump guy did pretty well but I have to deduct some for all the sliding that took place when he eventually lost balance and "transitioned" to a "sit".
So just ask a good freeflyer if he wants to act base for 3-4 jumps. Get it on video. Then you can avoid all the bitching and second guessing. Course you risk getting to know that maybe you ain't so shit hot after all.
Go for that.
That's how we've done it in the past. Someone new to HD says he/she got the shit down, an experienced freeflyer goes for a few checout jumps with said person.
Later at the bonfire, the truth comes out. Either that someone is full of shit and everyone knows or the person is legit and everyone knows.
So far with the three people I've done this with I am 3-0. 3 bullshitters, 0 legit. Or maybe 2.5 - 0.5, one 150 jump guy did pretty well but I have to deduct some for all the sliding that took place when he eventually lost balance and "transitioned" to a "sit".
So just ask a good freeflyer if he wants to act base for 3-4 jumps. Get it on video. Then you can avoid all the bitching and second guessing. Course you risk getting to know that maybe you ain't so shit hot after all.
Go for that.
Sorry, someone can have 400 jumps and be a horrid skydiver. There are people I know who are solid skydivers and don't come off like some skygod with a few hundred jumps. I'll probably have that number within a year. It's more experience, but nothing enormous.
The funnies thing about the head down too early topic is if you look at statistics, swooping is hell more dangerous...even for someone with thousands of jumps. It's widely done, so it's no big deal. You want to make the sport safer, keep all canopies windloaded at 1:1.
This is skydiving and not bowling though, so I accept someone can come slamming into me on a high performance chute. I don't go around telling people, you really shouldn't swoop, it only adds to the danger of the freefall experience...ahah
It's part of the risk you take when you skydive. That's all.
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