mr_woosh 0 #1 February 5, 2007 got a question for you guys, a week ago my friend and me we diving and he had a line twist and started pulling risers right away. his story made me think whether it's a good idea to start pulling right away as soon as you notice line twists as it might just make line twists form higher and harder to undo, yesterday I had line twists myself and I could feel it forming right away, so my first reaction was to grab the risers and pull apart without thinking twice. I stopped line twists from forming after the first one and now I feel like it's still good to pull apart as soon as possible. Any expert opinions are appreciated another question regarding my yesterday's experience, the above mentioned line twists, as I realized after clearing it, were initiated by noninflated cell on one side which sent me spinning. My first reaction was to grab the right rear riser to stabilize myself and only then trying to fix the problem. So two questions here 1) was it a right thing bothering with stabilizing first or would it better to just go ahead trying to inflate the cell (which inflated right after pulling the toggles). 2) if you cutaway while spinning wouldn't you get line twists on you reserve as I'd expect you'll continue to spin after cutaway. If so what are the remedies that might alleviate the problem? I apologize if these questions are overestimating the dangers, but as a noob it's hard to tell what exactly will determine your lifespan. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #2 February 5, 2007 First things first. In your relatively new status in this world of skydiving...I'd ask your instructors to go over the fundamentals with you again. Wasn't this covered in your FJC? To answer your first question...NEVER release your brakes while you are still in line twists. This will only add to the problem and take what -was- just a simple fix to a cutaway situation. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr_woosh 0 #3 February 5, 2007 Thanks Itdiver! I guess I was not too clear with the original post. I will ask instructors next time I am at DZ, but I believe getting several opinions from people at different DZs might be beneficial. as far as FJC, there was a lot of info put into my head that day and as much as I wanted to remember everything, I am pretty sure there are parts that did not dig into my brain as well as others. anyway the questions still stand 1) is it better to pull risers away as soon as you notice line twists forming or wait a few sec hoping the twists will get lower along the lines which will make gaining initial momentum in the opposite direction by pulling easier. At least in my mind there are pros and cons to both options 2) at the time I pulled the toggle I've already cleared the line twists but was spinning, so the question is whether to try to stabilize first pulling one riser wasting a few sec but potentially gaining time to fix the cause of spin or to pull the toggles right away not wasting any time but staying in a spin which in case the problem doesn't clear right away can cost you altitude. Again I can see cons and pros to both scenarios and was wondering what in your opinion is a better option. 3) cutting away while spinning question, I understand you have to cut away no matter what if main is not landable but I am just wondering if there are some easy tricks (except for arching) that a noob can be unaware of that can help you stabilize. ADD: this was my first spinning malfunction and although I knew I'd cut away if not stable and with landable main by 2500' thinking of getting line twist on reserve due to the fact that I am spinning while cutting away made me a bit uneasy, hence the last question. If the only solution is to cut away and arch like crazy so be it, I just want to make sure I am not missing anything. Thank you! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #4 February 5, 2007 Quote I will ask instructors next time I am at DZ, but I believe getting several opinions from people at different DZs might be beneficial. This is where we differ. At 20 jumps I wouldn't confuse 'lots of opinions' with what your FJC instructor educates you to do. Keep it simple. It's easier to remember. :^) Quote as far as FJC, there was a lot of info put into my head that day and as much as I wanted to remember everything, I am pretty sure there are parts that did not dig into my brain as well as others. See my comment above. :^) We agree! Quote 1) is it better to pull risers away as soon as you notice line twists forming Here is where your FJC instructor can help you. What are you flying? How are you loading your canopy? The general answer you may get here might apply. It might not. Your instructor will know you. He/she will know your equipment. The general answer is yes, get on your risers asap. Don't let the canopy keep spinning (or losing altitude with a line-twist/spin). HOWEVER, be careful not to strip the brake line off the riser, and thus increasing your spin (or line-twist). A docile canopy will most likely not spin up on you, even if you wait a few seconds, but what if you're on a higher performance canopy in the future? THAT canopy will require you have quicker reaction. see why I hesitated to answer you in the first place and directed you to your instructor? ;^) Quote 2) at the time I pulled the toggle I've already cleared the line twists but was spinning, so the question is whether to try to stabilize first pulling one riser wasting a few sec but potentially gaining time to fix the cause of spin or Again, a good question with a lengthy discussion. A low time jumper should clear the line twists and release the brakes. The docile canopy will respect this. A higher performance canopy (with altitude to spare) will like to have the riser counter first (to stop the spin and allow the pilot to not spin to the ground so fast as he/she releases the brakes (see my post in the photography forum yesterday..). Quote 3) cutting away while spinning question, I understand you have to cut away no matter what if main is not landable but I am just wondering if there are some easy tricks (except for arching) that a noob can be unaware of that can help you stabilize. Arch. Yes. Do you keep spinning after the cutaway? There are many schools of thought on this. Some say 'yes', others 'no'. The ones that say 'no' point to the fact that if you're spinning that fast you release going -away- from the malfunction in a straight line...and thus no longer spinning, but shooting away. Others disagree. So, do you see why we directed you to your instructor? Keep it simple. In the event of a malfunction we want you to think clearly and not sit there and go through a list of what 'everybody and their dog' says to do. Keep it safe. Have fun. Remember: PULL, PULL AT THE RIGHT ALTITUDE, LAND SAFELY. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,027 #5 February 5, 2007 Can you be more precise about what you mean by "pulling risers".... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mr_woosh 0 #6 February 5, 2007 Quote Quote This is where we differ. At 20 jumps I wouldn't confuse 'lots of opinions' with what your FJC instructor educates you to do. Keep it simple. It's easier to remember. :^) well my way is kinda different (might be the aftereffect of staying with academia for too long ) FJC was a total info overload and I was too stressed out :) now that I have more knowledge, experience, understanding and structure to the process I am craving information. I like to hear different opinions and figure out what makes sense to me, rather than having one simplest option that was given to me just not to overload me too much the first time. I do my sorting of ideas on the ground, but it makes me feel good if I know what's out there and can actually make a more educated choice on how to act. QuoteSee my comment above. :^) We agree! FJC is definitely more than enough for the first jump, but again, at least in my case, later on the more information I have the more confident I feel. Quote Here is where your FJC instructor can help you. What are you flying? How are you loading your canopy? The general answer you may get here might apply. It might not. Your instructor will know you. He/she will know your equipment. point well taken and I guess I should have put more info in my profile (will do once I am done with this post). I just moved to Spectre190, I am 140 so exit weight about 165-170, which makes it about .88:1 I guess Quote see why I hesitated to answer you in the first place and directed you to your instructor? ;^) I understand that you don't apply general advises blindly, again for me it's just some extra food for thoughts, so I really appreciate your taking time spelling these general ideas for me! Quote ... The docile canopy will respect this. A higher performance canopy (with altitude to spare) will like to ... that's exactly the type of info I like, ideas on different scenarios and setups :) Quote There are many schools of thought on this. if anything it at least made me feel better knowing that at least it is not a set issue that you are going to spin like crazy Quote Keep it simple. I believe keeping it simple is different from being uninformed, so I sort it out and simplify on the ground. And just wanted to thank you again. your reply clarified a lot for me and eased my concerns quite a bit! Blue skies! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mr_woosh 0 #7 February 5, 2007 Quote Can you be more precise about what you mean by "pulling risers". pulling the risers apart and bicycle kick to get out of line twists Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ltdiver 3 #8 February 5, 2007 QuoteQuote Can you be more precise about what you mean by "pulling risers". pulling the risers apart and bicycle kick to get out of line twists Funny story. A student a fellow instructor was training was demonstrating how to get out of line twists. (hanging harness) They spred the risers apart and preceded to actually bicycle in place (no twisting motion). The reason emergency procedures are reviewed with each level of AFF. Who knows what they remember (or think they remember) from Level I to Level II. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites stayhigh 2 #9 February 5, 2007 on wingloading of .8 and while riding specter,,,, how bad of diving spinner can it be????Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #10 February 5, 2007 as a matter of interest, did you do AFF? i did a SL FJC and i guess because line twists are common on SL it was pretty much drummed into us what to do with them, including to never release the toggles until the twists were cleared. (we were told: "half of you will probably have line twists", and sure enough half of us did, including me.) there were certainly things i'm sure we all forgot on the info overload but i'm pretty sure no-one forgot what to do with line twists. also, when you say "spinning", were you spinning fast or just turning slowly? i've had a few openings (at relatively low WLs, well below 1:1) where i had non-inflation of a couple of end cells but never enough to turn me so that i noticed.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites stayhigh 2 #11 February 5, 2007 out of my jumps with canopy under wing loading of 1.2 i had "one" real diving spinner. even that one got back stable(meaning not seeing brown,blue,brown,blue,brown,blue) within 250-500 ft. I don't think even that one is considered diving spinner if you compare it with highly-loaded eliptical canopy...Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites brianfry713 0 #12 February 5, 2007 IMHO, It's best to stop line twists as soon as you see or feel them about to happen. Many times I feel like I may have twisted up if I wasn't fighting them on risers or in my harness. I usually stop them by shifting weight or trying to twist my body the way the canopy is twisting, instead of the canopy and your body going in opposite directions, leading to line twists. Don't pull down on risers or toggles when you are in line twists, but pull out on risers to stop or remove the twists, and bicycle kick your legs to change your twisting momentum. Don't try to do anything to your canopy until the line twists are out. After the twists are out, you can stop a spin by first pulling down on a rear riser or shifting weight to one side of your harness. If you can't stop the spin using rear risers and harness, then unstow and use your toggles once you're out of the line twists. All the time keep an eye on your altitude and if you're getting close to your hard deck and don't have time to kick out of the line twists (or don't have a landable canopy for any other reason), then cutaway regardless if you're spinning or not. You may get line twists on your reserve (I was unstable when I chopped and did), but as long as the reserve is not heavily loaded it is less prone to line twists being 7 cells, rectangular, and a low aspect ratio. Once your reserve is open, do the same thing to try to get out of the line twists if you have them. Following proper emergency procedures and arching while cutting away will lower the risks. Jumping a lowly loaded canopy like a Spectre will lower the chances for severe line twists or rapidly spinning malfunctions, but there are no guarantees in this sport, and Spectres and reserves do malfunction. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bch7773 0 #13 February 6, 2007 Quote ADD: this was my first spinning malfunction and although I knew I'd cut away if not stable and with landable main by 2500' thinking of getting line twist on reserve due to the fact that I am spinning while cutting away made me a bit uneasy, hence the last question. If the only solution is to cut away and arch like crazy so be it, I just want to make sure I am not missing anything. Thank you! A. Line twists, while you are a student under a large, docile main, are NOT usually a malfunction. They are a problem. You can fix them. B. As soon as you see you are getting line twists, spread risers and kick. Theres no point to waiting for them to continue twisting. And never touch your brakes if you still have line twists. C. Your 2500 hard deck is just that... a HARD deck. That means don't be thinking about twists on your reserve etc, at 2500 feet if you don't have a landable canopy, you cut away and pull reserve. D. Talk to your instructor. He'll be able to explain things a lot easier in person than us over the internet. MB 3528, RB 1182 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mr_woosh 0 #14 February 6, 2007 Quoteon wingloading of .8 and while riding specter,,,, how bad of diving spinner can it be???? stayhigh, once I am up to 150+ jumps I'd probably have the same question, at my level for ME it was significant enough. Quote as a matter of interest, did you do AFF? Orange1, I did do AFF and I did know what to do with line twists, the questions were about the time after I am out of line twists. as for spinning, it felt like I am pretty much horizontal. not sure what a diving spinner is, but I prefer to be mostly under the canopy not next to it, at least for now, at least on opening. spin was not overwhelming but definitely something one would notice :) Quote I usually stop them by shifting weight or trying to twist my body the way the canopy is twisting brianfry713, that's actually something I've heard of but that never jumped into my mind, thanks for pointing it out! Quote A B C D bch7773, good points. there still was a bit of time before the hard deck to think and get concerned, so I did :) and I guess I'll have to be more careful with my vocabulary as far as problems/malfunctions go. Thank you all for your inputs! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites catfishhunter 2 #15 February 6, 2007 Quotearching while cutting away will lower the risks. I hear this alot but everything I have heard and read is the reserve is designed to open no matter what your body position is and actually opens cleaner in a feet to earth orientation. Don't spend the rest of your life trying to "arch" MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites strop45 0 #16 February 7, 2007 QuoteIMHO, It's best to stop line twists as soon as you see or feel them about to happen. ...... Don't pull down on risers or toggles when you are in line twists, but pull out on risers to stop or remove the twists.......... Is there a risk of getting your hands caught in the risers if you grab the risers to push them apart while spinning? On the few occasions I have been faced with a few line twists, I push the risers apart and kick just as you described, but wonder if this might get you into trouble with a high speed spin?The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #17 February 7, 2007 Quote Orange1, I did do AFF and I did know what to do with line twists, the questions were about the time after I am out of line twists. Um... you seemed to ask whether or not you should have released the toggles before kicking out of the twists (at least that's the way I and some others interpreted part of your question)... imo knowing the answer to that is part of knowing what to do with line twists...Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mr_woosh 0 #18 February 7, 2007 QuoteQuote Orange1, I did do AFF and I did know what to do with line twists, the questions were about the time after I am out of line twists. Um... you seemed to ask whether or not you should have released the toggles before kicking out of the twists (at least that's the way I and some others interpreted part of your question)... imo knowing the answer to that is part of knowing what to do with line twists... ok ok, I got the point, I'll be super extra careful describing the sequence of events next time. didn't realize you have to be very precise in the your description to get answers for what you are actually asking about. so I guess this is another lesson I got from this thread :) once again, second question was once you cleared line twists but still spinning due to closed cells on one side (not getting any more line twists) do you go for the toggles right away trying to inflate the cells or do you grab one of the risers to stop the spin first and then go for risers to inflate the cells. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. 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kallend 2,027 #5 February 5, 2007 Can you be more precise about what you mean by "pulling risers".... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr_woosh 0 #6 February 5, 2007 Quote Quote This is where we differ. At 20 jumps I wouldn't confuse 'lots of opinions' with what your FJC instructor educates you to do. Keep it simple. It's easier to remember. :^) well my way is kinda different (might be the aftereffect of staying with academia for too long ) FJC was a total info overload and I was too stressed out :) now that I have more knowledge, experience, understanding and structure to the process I am craving information. I like to hear different opinions and figure out what makes sense to me, rather than having one simplest option that was given to me just not to overload me too much the first time. I do my sorting of ideas on the ground, but it makes me feel good if I know what's out there and can actually make a more educated choice on how to act. QuoteSee my comment above. :^) We agree! FJC is definitely more than enough for the first jump, but again, at least in my case, later on the more information I have the more confident I feel. Quote Here is where your FJC instructor can help you. What are you flying? How are you loading your canopy? The general answer you may get here might apply. It might not. Your instructor will know you. He/she will know your equipment. point well taken and I guess I should have put more info in my profile (will do once I am done with this post). I just moved to Spectre190, I am 140 so exit weight about 165-170, which makes it about .88:1 I guess Quote see why I hesitated to answer you in the first place and directed you to your instructor? ;^) I understand that you don't apply general advises blindly, again for me it's just some extra food for thoughts, so I really appreciate your taking time spelling these general ideas for me! Quote ... The docile canopy will respect this. A higher performance canopy (with altitude to spare) will like to ... that's exactly the type of info I like, ideas on different scenarios and setups :) Quote There are many schools of thought on this. if anything it at least made me feel better knowing that at least it is not a set issue that you are going to spin like crazy Quote Keep it simple. I believe keeping it simple is different from being uninformed, so I sort it out and simplify on the ground. And just wanted to thank you again. your reply clarified a lot for me and eased my concerns quite a bit! Blue skies! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr_woosh 0 #7 February 5, 2007 Quote Can you be more precise about what you mean by "pulling risers". pulling the risers apart and bicycle kick to get out of line twists Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #8 February 5, 2007 QuoteQuote Can you be more precise about what you mean by "pulling risers". pulling the risers apart and bicycle kick to get out of line twists Funny story. A student a fellow instructor was training was demonstrating how to get out of line twists. (hanging harness) They spred the risers apart and preceded to actually bicycle in place (no twisting motion). The reason emergency procedures are reviewed with each level of AFF. Who knows what they remember (or think they remember) from Level I to Level II. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stayhigh 2 #9 February 5, 2007 on wingloading of .8 and while riding specter,,,, how bad of diving spinner can it be????Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #10 February 5, 2007 as a matter of interest, did you do AFF? i did a SL FJC and i guess because line twists are common on SL it was pretty much drummed into us what to do with them, including to never release the toggles until the twists were cleared. (we were told: "half of you will probably have line twists", and sure enough half of us did, including me.) there were certainly things i'm sure we all forgot on the info overload but i'm pretty sure no-one forgot what to do with line twists. also, when you say "spinning", were you spinning fast or just turning slowly? i've had a few openings (at relatively low WLs, well below 1:1) where i had non-inflation of a couple of end cells but never enough to turn me so that i noticed.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stayhigh 2 #11 February 5, 2007 out of my jumps with canopy under wing loading of 1.2 i had "one" real diving spinner. even that one got back stable(meaning not seeing brown,blue,brown,blue,brown,blue) within 250-500 ft. I don't think even that one is considered diving spinner if you compare it with highly-loaded eliptical canopy...Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brianfry713 0 #12 February 5, 2007 IMHO, It's best to stop line twists as soon as you see or feel them about to happen. Many times I feel like I may have twisted up if I wasn't fighting them on risers or in my harness. I usually stop them by shifting weight or trying to twist my body the way the canopy is twisting, instead of the canopy and your body going in opposite directions, leading to line twists. Don't pull down on risers or toggles when you are in line twists, but pull out on risers to stop or remove the twists, and bicycle kick your legs to change your twisting momentum. Don't try to do anything to your canopy until the line twists are out. After the twists are out, you can stop a spin by first pulling down on a rear riser or shifting weight to one side of your harness. If you can't stop the spin using rear risers and harness, then unstow and use your toggles once you're out of the line twists. All the time keep an eye on your altitude and if you're getting close to your hard deck and don't have time to kick out of the line twists (or don't have a landable canopy for any other reason), then cutaway regardless if you're spinning or not. You may get line twists on your reserve (I was unstable when I chopped and did), but as long as the reserve is not heavily loaded it is less prone to line twists being 7 cells, rectangular, and a low aspect ratio. Once your reserve is open, do the same thing to try to get out of the line twists if you have them. Following proper emergency procedures and arching while cutting away will lower the risks. Jumping a lowly loaded canopy like a Spectre will lower the chances for severe line twists or rapidly spinning malfunctions, but there are no guarantees in this sport, and Spectres and reserves do malfunction. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bch7773 0 #13 February 6, 2007 Quote ADD: this was my first spinning malfunction and although I knew I'd cut away if not stable and with landable main by 2500' thinking of getting line twist on reserve due to the fact that I am spinning while cutting away made me a bit uneasy, hence the last question. If the only solution is to cut away and arch like crazy so be it, I just want to make sure I am not missing anything. Thank you! A. Line twists, while you are a student under a large, docile main, are NOT usually a malfunction. They are a problem. You can fix them. B. As soon as you see you are getting line twists, spread risers and kick. Theres no point to waiting for them to continue twisting. And never touch your brakes if you still have line twists. C. Your 2500 hard deck is just that... a HARD deck. That means don't be thinking about twists on your reserve etc, at 2500 feet if you don't have a landable canopy, you cut away and pull reserve. D. Talk to your instructor. He'll be able to explain things a lot easier in person than us over the internet. MB 3528, RB 1182 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr_woosh 0 #14 February 6, 2007 Quoteon wingloading of .8 and while riding specter,,,, how bad of diving spinner can it be???? stayhigh, once I am up to 150+ jumps I'd probably have the same question, at my level for ME it was significant enough. Quote as a matter of interest, did you do AFF? Orange1, I did do AFF and I did know what to do with line twists, the questions were about the time after I am out of line twists. as for spinning, it felt like I am pretty much horizontal. not sure what a diving spinner is, but I prefer to be mostly under the canopy not next to it, at least for now, at least on opening. spin was not overwhelming but definitely something one would notice :) Quote I usually stop them by shifting weight or trying to twist my body the way the canopy is twisting brianfry713, that's actually something I've heard of but that never jumped into my mind, thanks for pointing it out! Quote A B C D bch7773, good points. there still was a bit of time before the hard deck to think and get concerned, so I did :) and I guess I'll have to be more careful with my vocabulary as far as problems/malfunctions go. Thank you all for your inputs! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
catfishhunter 2 #15 February 6, 2007 Quotearching while cutting away will lower the risks. I hear this alot but everything I have heard and read is the reserve is designed to open no matter what your body position is and actually opens cleaner in a feet to earth orientation. Don't spend the rest of your life trying to "arch" MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
strop45 0 #16 February 7, 2007 QuoteIMHO, It's best to stop line twists as soon as you see or feel them about to happen. ...... Don't pull down on risers or toggles when you are in line twists, but pull out on risers to stop or remove the twists.......... Is there a risk of getting your hands caught in the risers if you grab the risers to push them apart while spinning? On the few occasions I have been faced with a few line twists, I push the risers apart and kick just as you described, but wonder if this might get you into trouble with a high speed spin?The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #17 February 7, 2007 Quote Orange1, I did do AFF and I did know what to do with line twists, the questions were about the time after I am out of line twists. Um... you seemed to ask whether or not you should have released the toggles before kicking out of the twists (at least that's the way I and some others interpreted part of your question)... imo knowing the answer to that is part of knowing what to do with line twists...Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr_woosh 0 #18 February 7, 2007 QuoteQuote Orange1, I did do AFF and I did know what to do with line twists, the questions were about the time after I am out of line twists. Um... you seemed to ask whether or not you should have released the toggles before kicking out of the twists (at least that's the way I and some others interpreted part of your question)... imo knowing the answer to that is part of knowing what to do with line twists... ok ok, I got the point, I'll be super extra careful describing the sequence of events next time. didn't realize you have to be very precise in the your description to get answers for what you are actually asking about. so I guess this is another lesson I got from this thread :) once again, second question was once you cleared line twists but still spinning due to closed cells on one side (not getting any more line twists) do you go for the toggles right away trying to inflate the cells or do you grab one of the risers to stop the spin first and then go for risers to inflate the cells. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
