question on getting into flying with a camera

[woodpecker 0]

I'm not interesting in pursuing this yet, but wondering why there is a 200 jump minimum required (recommended) to jump with a camera?

If the jumper want to simply see what he saw during a jump, and not trying to vid other jumps, tandems, etc. then what is the big deal?

In previouse threads the reason seems to be about snag points on the camera helmet...well I just got back from spain and had a friend complete his AFF with a huge radio on the side of his helmet. And this thing had more snag points than a camera box ever did.

Can someone explain this too me? Just a food for thought question really. And lets all keep in mind, this is for simple vid account of their jump, not for trying to make an actual quality jump vid of others.

SONIC WOODY #146

There is a fine line between cockiness and confidence -- which side of the line are you on?

[PhreeZone 20]

Because you quicly tire of seeing nothing but shaking video and flashes of blue and gree. Soon before you even notice it you are starting to adjust your flying so that the resulting video doesn't result in motion sickness when you watch it. This has the result that you are now paying attention to the shot more then other things on the skydive.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Suavel 0]

I thought it was because camera mounts have a bad habit of getting in the way of other important things.

Like risers and pilot chute bridles.

[woodpecker 0]

I can understand that, but if the jumper doesnt tire of this (hypotheticaly of course) are there any real issues?

SONIC WOODY #146

There is a fine line between cockiness and confidence -- which side of the line are you on?

[steveorino 7]

For newbies they have more than enough stuff to think about. No one puts the camera on their head and forgets it. You start thinking about is it on, did I set the settings right, did I remember to set the focus, etc. Yes, this comes more into play more when you are actually getting paid to jump a camera, because if you screw that up(the basics I mentioned) you screwed up the entire video for a paying customer.

So it is less of a hassle for those who want to just record what they see. But from my own personal point of view you will quickly tire of filming a lot of air and will gravitate to getting "the shot".

steveOrino

[Andy9o8 2]

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and had a friend complete his AFF with a huge radio on the side of his helmet. And this thing had more snag points than a camera box ever did.

I happen to think that's a pretty dangerous practice to do with a student.

[shropshire 0]

I think that you should have more sense...... and leave the arty stuff to me.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[shropshire 0]

Wouldn't it be more dangerous to have students Off-air?

How may recorded problems have there been with anyone needing to use the quick release of their helmet?

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[woodpecker 0]

"leave it to me", sure....now lets try to keep the hair out of the lens, that would be kewl.


to the rest:

If the jumper was doing solos and only filming air/ground I could see that. But what if they are doing RW jumps and the film consisted of what they saw during the jump. Just a film of the exit and other jumpers...not caring about quality and "the shot" of course.

And I do see how the temptation in a few jumps could be there, but I'm only wondering the danger if one doesnt care about "the shot"? Is it any more dangerouse for a jumper with 50 jumps to have a camera than the AFF student with a radio?

SONIC WOODY #146

There is a fine line between cockiness and confidence -- which side of the line are you on?

[billvon 2,994]

>why there is a 200 jump minimum required (recommended) to jump >with a camera? . . . then what is the big deal?

Because it absolutely will affect how you fly. You will pay more attention to the camera than to the jump. Two examples of this in action:

1) At about the 2000 jump mark, I built a chestmount camera to use during AFF. A bit later I took it on a bigway at Perris. At this point I was a decent bigway flyer - had a few state records, had a reputation of being a reliable late diver etc. Well, on the first jump I collided with someone, and the second jump I ended up in the wrong sector. Kate told me to get rid of the camera (which I did.) Why was I having a problem? Was it getting in my way? Nope, it just stayed on my chest; I didn't even have to aim it. Was it making the dive more complex? Nope - I just turned it on before exit and turned it off after I landed. It was just that I knew I had a camera on, and was thinking not only about my job on the skydive but about what the camera was seeing (which all camera flyers do.)

I made a bunch more jumps on the system (probably another 100 or so) and then took it to another bigway event. This time I was OK; I could handle the multitasking better. Since then I've taken a similar system on three world records and gotten some good pictures.

2) At Brown we did a demo one day into a golf course. It could not have been an easier demo. Wide open landing areas, low winds, clear day. We took people with at least a C license.

It was a scary thing to watch. A helicopter on the ground - perhaps 1/4 mile from the LZ - waited until everyone was under canopy before starting up, and didn't take off until well after the last person landed. But one jumper saw the rotor start to spin up and freaked out. He landed hard enough to break both his femurs; amazingly he was OK. (The wet grass had something to do with it.) Someone else landed into the only tree in a 500 foot radius of the target.

Why did they have so many problems? Was the area tight? No. Were there immediate hazards they were dodging? No. It was just that they had more things to pay attention to. There was a helicopter that had its rotor spinning! Oh no! And there's a tree! What do I do? I should avoid that . . . WHAP.

It wasn't that these people didn't have the basic skill to land in a big area - it's that there were distractions that they didn't have the experience to manage yet. Camera is like that as well.

I'd wait until you have 200-300 jumps, until you can do RW without worrying about whether you will get there or not, without worrying whether you can break off safely, without ever losing sight of the people on the dive. Once you can do that, then add the camera and do very simple skydives until that is second nature as well.

[jerry81 10]

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How may recorded problems have there been with anyone needing to use the quick release of their helmet?

I have seen two cameras ripped off the helmets in the last three months. One was a top-mounted digital still caught by the risers of a departing main, the other was a side-mounted (badly, at that) video camera that came off after a riser strike. First person was about ready to release his helmet but the camera mount gave out faster, second person just got very lucky...cause there was also this fatality about a year ago, where the most probable cause for main/reserve entanglement was determined to have been a riser hanging up on the camera mount after cutaway. No release system on the helmet and an extremely experienced skydiver.
That's three that I know of in the last 12 months...

[woodpecker 0]

First, I have over the required amount of jumps and have no interest in flying camera....yet. This was just a question that I was thinking about while seeing the radio with the AFF people.

Billvon: Again thanks for an extremely detailed answer with points I had not thought of.

To the rest: Thanks for your posts. I just thought it was for snag points and the many who think they can be a vidiot.

SONIC WOODY #146

There is a fine line between cockiness and confidence -- which side of the line are you on?

[jceman 1]

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How may recorded problems have there been with anyone needing to use the quick release of their helmet?

I have seen two cameras ripped off the helmets in the last three months. One was a top-mounted digital still caught by the risers of a departing main, the other was a side-mounted (badly, at that) video camera that came off after a riser strike. First person was about ready to release his helmet but the camera mount gave out faster, second person just got very lucky...cause there was also this fatality about a year ago, where the most probable cause for main/reserve entanglement was determined to have been a riser hanging up on the camera mount after cutaway. No release system on the helmet and an extremely experienced skydiver.
That's three that I know of in the last 12 months...

We lost a good friend app. 5 years ago when Jan D. had a mal and her reserve was snagged by her camera helmet -- she got the helmet off and tried to clear the mess but to quote the report "impact was face down, helmet was off."

Cameras are a great tool, but one absolutely must have the skills to handle to way they complicate every aspect of the jump.

To the OP, the rules many places have regarding when one can jump with a camera are, like most skydiving rules, grounded on experience. They are not there to hamper you, they've come about because we want to keep people from repeating bad history.

They are not written in stone.

They are written in blood.

[Pulse 0]

Can't say one could really nail it down to one reason. I still think 200-jumps is low to be honest.

"Any language where the unassuming word fly signifies an annoying insect, a means of travel, and a critical part of a gentleman's apparel is clearly asking to be mangled."

[shropshire 0]

Thanks for the info.... Had to ask.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[NWFlyer 2]

Do you have a macro created for that answer, Bill?

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[billvon 2,994]

Cut and paste my dear Krisanne, cut and paste.

[damion75 0]

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First, I have over the required amount of jumps and have no interest in flying camera....yet. This was just a question that I was thinking about while seeing the radio with the AFF people.

I agree with your point about the student radio mount on the side of the student's noggin. Not quite as big or as snagworthy as your average camera but still an anomoly... More use than the radio on a neckstrap that I learned with which was completely inaudible, but not as good as the radio with an earpiece...

To go back to the camera thing, for a reasonably well mounted camera, I think the biggest risk is distraction rather than snagging. No matter how well intentioned the flier is to just capture what is going on around them and not intentionally capture the shot, you do end up getting distracted both while preparing and later risk distraction in the sky to film that pretty canopy coming towards you!

The simplest way to prove that is to give it a try. You have above the required minimum so borrow a camera helmet and give it a go...

***************

Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus.

[CygnusX-1 43]

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Because it absolutely will affect how you fly. You will pay more attention to the camera than to the jump.

I couldn't disagree more. But as with most things in life, it all has to do with the person. Everyone is different. At jump 204, I strapped a camera to my helmet. Not for the purpose of jumping camera, but just to try it out. I think that this is a key aspect. I do not jump camera. I'm a jumper with a camera on my head. That has been about 150 jumps ago and I have only done one dedicated "camera" jump. The rest of the time, I turn it on at the door and forget about it. It gets what it gets. To those who think that all I get is sky/ground, then you have never sighted a camera. Granted, the action is hardly ever in the sweet spot of the screen. But I don't try to put it there either. It has just been fun to "see what I see" later. I have no desire to change that aspect either. I would rather be "doing" the jump than filming others doing the jump. The key is that you really don't care what you video. The moment you start caring - even subconsciously - then your flying will change. What is nice is that when everything goes to hell, and I want to put something on video I can.

To the OP, I think that the 200 jump min is a carryover to when most if not all cameras were big and bulky. With the advent of smaller and smaller cameras, the snag points are becoming less likely. I also know you have to have a snag-free mount. I've seen people claiming to have 50 jumps with a camera on their helmet and think "Why? You can't even fly." Shit, there is a lot I need work on at 350. Basic minimum requirements are just that though. Someone had to pick a minimum jump number for this. Like I said before, it is all what we as skydivers decide to do with our time in the air that really counts. The way I see it, as long as you are not being a danger to yourself or others, it doesn't matter what you do.

Please feel free to disagree with me all you want.

[steveorino 7]

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To the OP, I think that the 200 jump min is a carryover to when most if not all cameras were big and bulky.

My money is that is was because 200 jumps was a "D" or "expert" license.

steveOrino

[quade 4]

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The moment you start caring - even subconsciously - then your flying will change.***

Which is why it DOES affect the outcome everytime you put on a camera.

Are you familiar with the concept of Schrödinger's cat?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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[Andy_Copland 0]

Heres an idea. Why dont you stop asking questions, get a camera and let me whore in front of it with my shenanigans.

Im picturing that jump now where i kicked you in the head, how that would of looked... yep get a cam.

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[shropshire 0]

Yeah.... like you could stay close enough

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[CygnusX-1 43]

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Are you familiar with the concept of Schrödinger's cat?

No I wasn't. But I don't see how this has anything to do with flying camera. My personal belief is that it really doesn't matter what the observer sees. The fact of the matter is that the cat is already dead. Why? Placing a cat in such a small box - mind you it probably should be lead not steel as to not introduce any outside radiation from penetrating the box and affecting the outcome - the cat would have used up all of its available oxygen and suffocated. Therefore, it does not matter what the Geiger counter sensed or didn't.

[J_bird 0]

So its all about the snag points. Does that mean that a helmet with a mini cam (lipstick cam) mounted on top would be ok for someone with less than 200 jumps to have