rhys 0 #1 November 28, 2006 Anyone had any experience with a diesel piston cessna206? I'm reading these diesel pison engines for 206's have over 300BHP made in germany? dunno if this is the right fourum but there is not an aircraft forum."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #2 November 28, 2006 QuoteAnyone had any experience with a diesel piston cessna206? I'm reading these diesel pison engines for 206's have over 300BHP made in germany? dunno if this is the right fourum but there is not an aircraft forum. www.diverdriver.com Click on "Forum".Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RMURRAY 1 #3 November 28, 2006 QuoteAnyone had any experience with a diesel piston cessna206? I'm reading these diesel pison engines for 206's have over 300BHP made in germany? dunno if this is the right fourum but there is not an aircraft forum. I have been watching for several years - they are the future for sure but are expensive at the moment. If I came into a lot of cash a 206 fitted with this engine would be a money maker..... rm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #4 November 28, 2006 Would have been the future if the price of diesel had stayed low. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
helge 0 #5 November 28, 2006 Well.. The point here is that these engines does not run on diesel (although they can), they use Jet-A1 :) (This is at least the case for the SMA diesel engines) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LearningTOfly 0 #6 November 28, 2006 This engine mod is also available for the 172, although in a lesser horsepower. The advertizing pitch is a funny one: "Put our $250,000 conversion on your $50,000 plane and save money!" ..I'd imagine that the cost of updating a 206 would be slightly restrictive. Might as well lease a Twotter. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #7 November 28, 2006 Could they run on WVO?"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
helge 0 #8 November 28, 2006 QuoteCould they run on WVO? I believe the technology will work with WVO, but certification might be a different matter.. I'm sure there are others here more qualified to answer, I've just done some reading on Diesel engines because our 182 only has 300h to overhaul. Replacing the engine with a diesel is one of the options we are looking into (www.smaengines.com) Other diesel resources: www.dieselair.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dougiefresh 0 #9 November 28, 2006 The problem with WVO is that it congeals at a relatively high temperature. That's why cars that run on WVO need heaters under their wvo tanks. I think they probably would run on biodiesel -- perhaps that's what you were thinking. The biodiesel would still need some winterizing for the colder temps at altitude, though. A little regular diesel would most likely keep the viscosity where you need it, but don't quote me on that. All my research has been into biodiesel for cars, not planes.Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. --Douglas Adams Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
funkymonkey 0 #10 November 28, 2006 thought you were talking about a Peugeot 206 for a sec there... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #11 November 28, 2006 Two different companies mentioned in this thread. Thielert is based in Germany, uses Mercedes Benz components and is in the 300 horsepower range. Theilert diesel engines are already certified and flying in Diamond twin-engined trainers. SMA is a French company and is in the 160 horsepower range. At least one large American flying school has announced that they will convert their fleet of Cessna 172 trainers to SMA engines. 160 horsepower is not enough for a Cessna 182, much less a 206. Avgas is already difficult to find in much of Africa. On a practical note, North America will be the last part of the planet to convert small airplanes to diesel/bio-diesel/jet/kerosene fuel. That will be another 20 or 30 years away, about the same time gasoline ceases to be available for automobiles. In the meantime, more and more certified airplanes will convert to autogas. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
helge 0 #12 November 28, 2006 The SMA is 230HP continuous Still not enough for a 206, but works nice in a 182 according to the skydiving clubs I've contacted (There is at least one in Holland and one in Finland operating them) On their previous web page SMA (before being acquired by the SAFRAN group) mentioned a 300HP under development (As I understood it it was pretty much the same engine as the 230HP one) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RMURRAY 1 #13 November 29, 2006 QuoteThe SMA is 230HP continuous Still not enough for a 206, but works nice in a 182 according to the skydiving clubs I've contacted (There is at least one in Holland and one in Finland operating them) On their previous web page SMA (before being acquired by the SAFRAN group) mentioned a 300HP under development (As I understood it it was pretty much the same engine as the 230HP one) any information on how well the SMA does? i.e. turnaround time to 12000ft??? I will bet it is better than most would think... rm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
helge 0 #14 November 29, 2006 I do.. Somewhere.. I think they on my work computer.. Will take some time before I can access them. From memory around 25 minutes to 13000ft. This was at MTW. (Simulated paradrop, 3 passengers and almost full tanks) With 40% less fuel consumption, price of A1 vs AVGAS, Targeted 3000h TBO, no 50h service and far less movable parts my guess is that we will be seeing a lot of this engine at dropzones around the world. If anyone else has more information please contact me Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Broke 0 #15 November 29, 2006 I wonder if a diesel piston airplane engine would be able to accept a propane injection modification, or rather would the FAA approve such a modification.Divot your source for all things Hillbilly. Anvil Brother 84 SCR 14192 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #16 November 29, 2006 QuoteAvgas is already difficult to find in much of Africa. Is precisely why This discussion was started. I am inquiring on behalf of an African dropzone. It was mentioned that these engines can run on diesel but are supposed to use JET-A1? What would be the negative aspects of using Diesel instead of JET-A1?"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Eule 0 #17 November 29, 2006 Some general comments. Everything else being equal, for the same volume/weight, diesel fuel and its friends (Jet-A, kerosene, etc) have more chemical energy in them than auto gasoline and its friends (avgas/100LL). Note that in ground applications, the people that buy _a lot_ of fuel and could run anything they want use diesels exclusively: over-the-road trucking, railroads, boats, etc. One of the things that isn't equal is weight. All piston engines compress the fuel-air mixture before burning it. Diesel engines compress it about two or three times as much as gasoline engines, so they have to be built stronger, which usually means heavier. They also tend to run hotter than gasoline engines, so they are most often water-cooled - more weight again. On the other hand, the requirements of the automotive industry have resulted in much better engine controls and fuel systems, which can get the same power as older designs out of a smaller and lighter engine. The European automakers, in particular, have been working hard on diesels - they don't rattle, they don't smoke, they don't smell bad, and they give the same performance as a gasoline engine. These engines are starting to trickle into the US and I suspect they will become fairly popular in cars; this is definitely not your father's Oldsmobile with the infamous GM 350 diesel. In response to some specific points in this thread: QuoteDougiefresh: The problem with WVO is that it congeals at a relatively high temperature. That's why cars that run on WVO need heaters under their wvo tanks. Another approach I have seen is to have, say, a 10 gallon tank of WVO and a 1 gallon tank of petrodiesel (normal diesel). You start the engine on the petrodiesel and let it warm up. The exhaust heats up the WVO tank and lines, and when it's flowing well, you switch to the WVO. At shutdown, you switch back to petrodiesel and run for long enough that it's all petrodiesel in the fuel lines, then turn the engine off. In case anyone is wondering, WVO is Waste Vegetable Oil, aka the stuff that McDonalds cooks fries in. Yes, if you run it in an engine, the exhaust smells like McDonalds. Biodiesel is just vegetable oil that hasn't had fries cooked in it yet, and petrodiesel is the standard stuff made from Barney the Dinosaur. QuoteDougiefresh: The biodiesel would still need some winterizing for the colder temps at altitude, though. A little regular diesel would most likely keep the viscosity where you need it, but don't quote me on that. I have worked on a project that runs BD20 (20% biodiesel, 80% petrodiesel) in a modern European diesel engine with an absolutely stock fuel system and it works well. On the other hand, this engine never gets higher than about 3 AGL, and also hasn't been tried in North Dakota in January. Quoteriggerrob:On a practical note, North America will be the last part of the planet to convert small airplanes to diesel/bio-diesel/jet/kerosene fuel. That will be another 20 or 30 years away, about the same time gasoline ceases to be available for automobiles. I completely agree that light aircraft will mostly be running something other than 100LL in the future. But I wonder how you figure that autogas won't be available. Are the cars going to be on diesel too, or something else? Quotehelge:[....] far less movable parts [....] Hmm... You don't have an ignition system (distributor or magneto), but everything else is pretty much the same. If anything, compared to current piston engines, you add moving parts, including a water pump - not a big deal - and turbochargers, which spin at approximately 12 bazillion rpm and are a very big deal. The automated engine controls should help enforce kind treatment of the turbos, but it's still something you don't have on (many) gasoline engines. There's not much jumping content in the above, but I work in this area in my day job, so it's an interesting discussion to me. EulePLF does not stand for Please Land on Face. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fabiana 0 #18 November 29, 2006 Hi The diesel engine have 340hp original but the fabrick make it town to 320hp need 65liters four one flight -our.14000f in 17min drop. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreePhly 0 #19 December 7, 2006 Just a quick correction to definitions of WVO and Biodiesel. As Eule said WVO is Waste Vegetable Oil which has been filtered. The diesel engine was originally designed to operate on vegetable oil and Herr Diesel actually used peanut oil to power the original demonstration engine. Biodiesel can be produced using virgin vegetable oil or WVO, but is chemically processed in a transesterification process into a methyl ester. Biodiesel made with WVO will also smell like fries. By converting the WVO to a methyl ester, the biodiesel has a lesser tendency to "spoil" as WVO can if stored too long. Biodiesel also has a problem at lower temperatures and is typically mixed with petro diesel in areas with colder temperatures. I have played around with home brewing my diesel using WVO from my wife's restaurant and have run about 4 tankfuls through my 2003 Ford F250 Powerstroke 6.0L with no problems. The truck seems to run quieter and there doesn't seem to be any loss of power. Sorry for the OT post, but as I just got into the biodiesel home brewing, it sort of hit home. PhreePhly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
i97426 0 #20 December 23, 2006 I've been looking at making the change to a SMA powered jump plane for 2 years. It's a firewall forward project and not STC'd for the early 182's, at least not yet. Does anyone have any info on getting a field approval for the straight tail 182's? I think it is the way to go if you are small and need to stay piston powered. Not the cheapest but I feel in the long run it will pay off. Just got to bite that first bullet. Reply here or at diverdriver.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RMURRAY 1 #21 December 23, 2006 Quote"Put our $250,000 conversion on your $50,000 plane and save money!" the lower cost of maintenence over the life of the engine is the key. anyone who pays the bills to keep a plane in the air might comment on this. I have been following the "zoche" for several years but they don't seem to be making any progress. It is a 2 stroke, air cooled, turbo/supercharged radial diesel with direct drive. The one with 300HP has 2 banks of 4 cylinders each. someone at the DZ told me they are working on a 5 cylinder version which I'll bet is aimed at the 182... rm http://www.zoche.de/specs.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
