If you hurt yourself or die, one thing is certain, people are gonna talk about you on DZ.com. Are you next?

[strop45 0]

A number of comments and Lou Diamonds signature line (thread title) got me to thinking. If you are hurt or killed, what do you want people to say/not say about you and/or what happened? Any messages for loved ones or friends who may read dz.com.

Personally I hope that I don’t end up being discussed here in any shape or form, but if I should and it will help anyone else be safer then feel free to speculate about what may have happened and the circumstances that may have lead to the incident. Comment on my (in)experience, the gear I was using, the conditions that may have lead up to the incident. Don’t presume to know me or judge me for one jump. Like many others I’m addicted to skydiving, and hope that my skydiving legacy is that of someone doing something he loved and having a good time, not a fool doing a stupid thing.

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

[NWFlyer 2]

If I hurt myself you'd better believe I'll be on here telling the story in my own words as soon as I'm able to type or dictate to a friend to type for me.

If I die, well, then y'all can make up whatever you want, but hopefully someone who knows what happened will get on and share the details. My memory will not be served well by a cover up. I can only hope it doesn't turn into a pissing contest between a bunch of people who think they know what I shoulda coulda woulda done but all have different opinions about it.

If I fucked up even my friends better be willing to admit that I fucked up. If I go in I hope someone else can learn from it.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[ChrisL 2]

If there is something to be learned from the incident, then post away.

There should be another forum called "The Water Cooler" for people to engage in idle gossip, speculation, rumour, innuendo, or just flat out lie.

__

My mighty steed

[Zeppo 0]

Although it doesn't really bother my about what people say on here. Regardless of what I did or didn't do.

I definitely hope that my mistake can help teach other skydivers what not to do.

And I hope that my friends and loved ones understand that I went out doing what I loved do to, well aware of the risks involved.

What goes up, must come DOWN!!!

[CSpenceFLY 1]

Well if I die and I know I'm going to die,I'm going to do as much as I can to confuse the hell out of all of you.

[Tonto 1]

I've been on both sides of the fence.

I've argued that "The public has a right to know" with distraugh relatives, unable to understand why they hurt themselves by reading how their loved one should have done this, or did that and died.

I've also known the person being discussed, and their families, and have struck a (poor) balance between information and the 100 jump wonder rubbing their dead noses in the dirt by saying how he would never make such a simple mistake.

In truth, the Incidents forum could help a lot of some kind of people.

If it were gear related, like the reflex, or the Nova, or the half inch collapsable PC bridle, or reverse risers off a PDF rig, or the grommet issue, or emergency exits with bungy colapsable PC's, or tacking your slinks down etc. and people actually read, and went home and checked their shit, instead of thinking "Fucker. I'd handle that."

If it were "outside" related, eg, we saw the storm coming in, but figured we'd make it.. or Yeah. Couldn't get the plane started for hours, and when we finally did - last thing we expected was the engine to die at 100 ft... or my buddy told me that his rig sometimes had a right brake fire, but it was bigger than mine, and it was a night jump so I figured it would be ok to use borrowed gear. Look into the future an hour or so. You can. If you can't - don't go.

Other people can't be helped.

The "I'll never turn that low." or the "I have 2000 dives and have never and will never lose alti awareness" or the "I can afford to pull at 2000ft cos the USPA says that with my licence I can.." The ground is hungry to proove you wrong. Very hungry.

The bottom line is that we all make lots of mistakes on every dive that we do. Some of those mistakes mean nothing. Others point to a habit. Others are death on a stick. Without the stick.

Listen up. Listen to your peers. Listen to the old grumpy skydivers with no tunnel time who walk without a limp. If you are a very senior skydiver, and someone with "No time" in the sport, and "less than half your jumps" gives you really good advice, make sure it's you that rejects the information and not your ego. If you're new - go slow. You have a lifetime ahead of you. It doesn't have to be only 60 seconds long.

Making a lot of small mistakes is a good way to stay alive. It helps you recognise when things are going bad early, and builds the tools to save yourself in the process. Deny the mistake and the oportunity to learn slips away.

Sorry this got long. If I go in - flame away. Learn what you can, but most likely, it'll be because I made a few small mistakes and they cascaded into eternity. This sport can kill any of us without very much effort.

Blue Skies. This sport glows brightly, and burns incomparibly beautiful images into our memories. That brightness comes at a very high cost. It's the lives of our friends, the blood and the bones of our sky family. That's the dark side, the Black Death.

There is no one without the other.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[AFFI 0]

Great post T...

[Ms.sofaking 0]

"not a fool doing something stupid"

I hope if I were to go in somebody would learn something from the incident.But, I think discussion about a fatality especially should be kept about what happened or might have happened.Excluding uneeded words such as fool,idiot,stupid,dumb.And use words like mistake or not a good idea.You never know when you'll be the one explaining to a teenager who lost a parent, got into the forum, and saw pictures and read posts why people are so insensitive.We can discuss and learn from incidents in a respecful and tactful way.I don't want my children in tears because some dumb ass referred to their dead mother as one.

"I'm not sure how it's going to turn out, except I'll die in the end, she said. So what could really go wrong? -----Brian Andreas

[wmw999 2,439]

I understand and respect your position. But "mistake" isn't that negative a word. If I make a mistake that leads to my death, I sure don't want it whitewashed. There are more and less tactful ways to say that someone made a mistake, but in the long run, if you leave that part out, you're leaving out something important.

Yes, I'd prefer for my family's sake that the word "dumbass" not be used. But one isn't in control of that. My family has to be willing to read all the good stuff, too, and not focus on the negative.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Scoop 0]

I wouldn't care what detail was brought up as long as it was accurate. If I did something incredibly stupid, flame me and tell others why it was so dumb. If it was a mistake, call it what it is. If it was something beyond my control speak up for me!

I don't find it disrespectful that hours after someones died it appears on the board as long as any info that appears relating to the incident is accurate and not speculative.

People die, its what happens. When it happens for me I don't mind others discussing it factually. Although I'm hoping it will be a boring discussion along the lines of 'well at 110 he had a good innings and died peacefully in his sleep so we cant complain' rather than need to be discussed about on here at all

[Gene03 0]

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There should be another forum called "The Water Cooler" for people to engage in idle gossip, speculation, rumour, innuendo, or just flat out lie.

There is a forum for that already. It's called rec skydiving dot com.

“The only fool bigger than the person who knows it all is the person who argues with him.

Stanislaw Jerzy Lec quotes (Polish writer, poet and satirist 1906-1966)

[Ron 10]

Speculate all ya want if I bounce. It might save lives.

I would hope that the facts get told by someone EVEN IF IT POINTS TO ME SCREWING UP. Heck, simple fact is that if I die skydiving it will most likely be a direct result of me screwing up.

Lets face facts, most accidents are the direct result of someone screwing up, it is the very nature of the sport. Pretending that the person did not screw up is not honest and does not serve the greater good.

Nice, smart, fun loving, sexy, good with kids and animals type of people make mistakes....We are participating in a sport that a single mistake can be fatal. Be honest and don't try to hide the facts.

The ground does not care how nice you are, or how skilled, or what you meant to do....It only cares what happend.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[BIGUN 1,297]

Based on the thread title, what I thought was going to turn into a shit storm - has graced us with one of the most profound replies I've ever read on here.

Thanks T.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[Ms.sofaking 0]

No, mistake is not a negative word.Everyone makes them.I believe it is the most common cause of all incidents.But, saying someone did something stupid implies they were stupid.And is inflamatory to loved ones.Saying someone made a mistake implies they were fallible, and we all are.
Teenagers are very computer savvy these days. And when one loses a parent to skydiving they are likely to come here.It's not hard to get in here.(I did)
I just hope we can be aware of this and keep things more factual.
Absolutely we should discuss and learn from any incident.But, with respect and decency.

"I'm not sure how it's going to turn out, except I'll die in the end, she said. So what could really go wrong? -----Brian Andreas

[popsjumper 2]

If I go out skydiving...have at it. I hope it'll be "going out with style!" or "a blaze of glory!" thus providing lots of post-fodder.

Come to think of it, doesn't matter how I go out...as long as it's with a smile on my face and people learn from it.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[wmw999 2,439]

Some people see the sentence "she did something stupid" and thinks that makes them stupid. Others don't see it that way -- I am not stupid (really! ), but I'm perfectly capable of doing stupid things. I'm not mean, but I've done mean things.

It's kind of like personal attacks here on dz.com -- talk about the idea, not the person. If you stick with the action, you're not attacking the person.

So if someone is the second kind (who doesn't equate a stupid action as defining someone as stupid), they don't consider that someone else might read it differently.

It's only when you consistently do stupid things, and refuse to learn from them, that the word stupid might be applicable. But it takes a lot of those, and particularly the second.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Fast 0]

Quote

Speculate all ya want if I bounce. It might save lives.

I would hope that the facts get told by someone EVEN IF IT POINTS TO ME SCREWING UP. Heck, simple fact is that if I die skydiving it will most likely be a direct result of me screwing up.

Lets face facts, most accidents are the direct result of someone screwing up, it is the very nature of the sport. Pretending that the person did not screw up is not honest and does not serve the greater good.

Nice, smart, fun loving, sexy, good with kids and animals type of people make mistakes....We are participating in a sport that a single mistake can be fatal. Be honest and don't try to hide the facts.

The ground does not care how nice you are, or how skilled, or what you meant to do....It only cares what happend.

Agreed.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[Ms.sofaking 0]

The word "stupid" was merely an example.I don't think things need to be sugar coated.Or we need to pretend someone didn't make a mistake.We should be honest and factual.I just said I don't think our choice of words need to be inflamatory.
I don't personally care what is said of me when I die.I won't be here.I simply meant, for the sake of loved one's, it's an emotional, sensitive, issue that can and should be discussed with respect and decency.

"I'm not sure how it's going to turn out, except I'll die in the end, she said. So what could really go wrong? -----Brian Andreas

[RogerRamjet 0]

Interesting poll and a great thread so far...

I'd say go ahead and post whatever is needed including speculation.

The speculation part is difficult for some, but here is my view. I believe that if at least one person has altered their behavior or how they check their gear or has gone and checked something about it based on a speculative post, then speculation is worth it in the incidents forum. I know it's sometimes hard to take for some, but I do believe some lives may have been saved just from some speculation that turned out to be false for that particular incident, but still caused someone to think about and correct something.

As for stupid comments, well I am of above average intelligence (some would disagree), but I have certainly done some stupid things in my life. It should probably be phrased as a stupid action vs. something like "they were stupid to do that."

Anyway, if I go in, I’d certainly like to think the mistake(s) I made that brought about my death could be avoided through dialogue in the incidents forum. If I don’t die, I’ll be the first one posting.

-----------------------
Roger "Ramjet" Clark
FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

[Ms.sofaking 0]

I agree.Speculation is just as important as fact. Dialogue open to speculation can also be learned from.

"I'm not sure how it's going to turn out, except I'll die in the end, she said. So what could really go wrong? -----Brian Andreas

[LouDiamond 1]

I am glad to see this has turned out to be a productive and civil discussion so far.

Let me share with everyone why and how that came to be my sig line as it is not intended to be insensitive or morbid. Tonto has already posted the overall intent or train of thought that the statement is supposed to invoke to those who read it. In fact, that sig line came to be during a discussion the moderators were having in the team room about a recent and rash increase in serious injuries and or deaths that all occurred in what seemed like a matter of days if not weeks apart from one another. In reply to something Tonto had said during our line of conversation and mutual agreement on, I mentioned possibly changing my sig line to what you see in the thread title in hopes that people would wake up and take notice.

The intent was to get peoples attention and make them stop and hopefully examine the things that they are doing, are thinking about doing or even hadn't considered yet in regards to skydiving that could potentially hurt them. Hopefully in doing that it would prevent another accident or fatality that could of been prevented from happening.It is meant to invoke thought and discussion not only with others but with ones self before something happens. Because once something has happened the statement in the sig line is going to happen, it is inevitable.

We are all aware(or should be) that we participate in an activity that you can never be too skilled in, current ,careful, conservative, heads up or switched on to 100% prevent something from going wrong. You can do everything right and still die in this sport.

However, when you see instances of people repeatedly killing or injuring themselves in instances where it could have been prevented it wears on you and you become a bit jaded. It is from this that I think a lot of people are quick to say things like "it was a dumb/stupid mistake" ,etc. It goes without saying that the vast majority of people here are not dumb or stupid yet they made a mistake or series of mistakes that killed/injured them. So how can that be? The easiest and most often used word is complacency. For those new to the sport it can also be from simply not knowing any better.

In instances where someone is injured or died, information about the event may keep the later from eventually making the same mistake. But more often than not, it is not the new to the sport people, it is those who have been around awhile. So hopefully my sig line makes people pause for a moment and examine their actions both past ,current and future. Maybe the next time someone is getting ready to throw a turn lower than they normally would or jump a canopy they aren't ready for yet, that saying will be floating around their subconscious and influence them. If it saves just one person, weather they know it or not, I'll be happy.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[packing_jarrett 0]

my main motivation for not getting hurt now, is so people don't have the satisfaction of thinking they're right.

Na' Cho' Cheese

[Tonto 1]

Whatever it takes, dude!

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[freeflychris 0]

I'm dead what do I care and If I am hurt then I could tell my story.

[airtwardo 7]

Listen to the old grumpy skydivers with no tunnel time who walk without a limp.

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~Other than the "Old Grumpy" part, I would think you were referring to jumpers like ME Tonto!

But since you used those adjectives....S P A R K Y' S ears are probably burning!


Great Post!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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