If you hurt yourself or die, one thing is certain, people are gonna talk about you on DZ.com. Are you next?

[Orange1 0]

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The speculation part is difficult for some, but here is my view. I believe that if at least one person has altered their behavior or how they check their gear or has gone and checked something about it based on a speculative post, then speculation is worth it in the incidents forum.

what he said.

And Tonto, excellent post... that maybe should be a sticky in the incidents forum?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Ron 10]

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No, mistake is not a negative word.Everyone makes them.I believe it is the most common cause of all incidents.But, saying someone did something stupid implies they were stupid

No it implies they did something stupid...Thats all, nothing more.

I don't think I am stupid....but I have done some stupid things...Even started a thread for others to admit their stupid mistakes.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1130378#1130378

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ms.sofaking 0]

Once again, I feel the dialogue regarding an incident should be made in a decent and respectful way without the use of inflamatory wordage.I don't think this should be a challenge.Although I know to some it is.And I'm talking about how a grieving loved one may interpret the words we use.Can we not articulate ourselves well enough to thoroughly discuss an incident without hurting someone who is in enough pain?Just my opinion.

"I'm not sure how it's going to turn out, except I'll die in the end, she said. So what could really go wrong? -----Brian Andreas

[RB_Hammer 0]

Looks to me like the first paragraph this sticky post in the Incidents formum should address your concerns about loved ones reading posts there...

billvon sticky

"I'm not lost. I don't know where I'm going, but there's no sense in being late."
Mathew Quigley

[billvon 2,989]

>I feel the dialogue regarding an incident should be made in a
>decent and respectful way without the use of inflamatory wordage.

I agree, and I hope that people can keep that in mind as they post here. It's easy to say "he was an idiot" I think partly because people cannot imagine themselves making the same mistake. But one thing that we've learned from the Incidents forum is that ANYONE - a world record holder, the world's best swooper, a DZO with decades of experience - can make mistakes. They were not idiots, even if they did something dumb that caused the incident.

>.And I'm talking about how a grieving loved one may interpret the words we use.

Yes, this is a hard one, because even someone saying "he screwed up when he turned that low" can be taken hard by a grieving family member. We warn family members not to read this forum if they will become upset, but that doesn't always work. I hope a combination of people being considerate in what they post and family members avoiding such forums can prevent hard feelings over such discussions.

[Ms.sofaking 0]

Well said.
And just reading undisputable facts of an incident can be very upsetting to family.
I have recently had to explain to a non-skydiver why pictures of there loved one were posted.I think I gave them an understanding of it.I hope.
Family will come in here regardless of warnings.It's human nature.We should just be aware of it.
But, we should never stop looking at, discussing and learning from unfortunate incidents.Not tip-toeing around people's feelings.Just being tactful.

"I'm not sure how it's going to turn out, except I'll die in the end, she said. So what could really go wrong? -----Brian Andreas

[flyinchicken 0]

Nice Tonto!

"Diligent observation leads to pure abstraction". Lari Pittman

[billvon 2,989]

This has been a good thread, and I would like to keep it on track. I deleted a few posts that involved comments like "pandering to sensitive family members" and whatnot. Let's try to avoid comments like that.

[NeilRobertson 0]

What a great post Tonto, very profound. Maybe we can make it part of all license requirements, as essential reading, just to remind us all of what we are about.

[lowie 0]

This is a great thread and Tontos post really covers it.

I do have one point I'd like to make though. If someone I knew went in I would do everything I could to discourage their family (skydivers excepted) from reading the DZ thread and I hope other divers would as well. I doubt you would get this level of analysis/discussion about a death in any other situation that a family would be exposed to and to them it would not provide any closure- only more pain.

It is one thing to be informed about what happened by someone in a compassionate way to an appropriate level and another to read the totaly frank discussion that takes place here, often at a technical level that wuffos could not begin to understand and often with little regard to the feelings of others that read it.

While I think it's a good result from a bad thing if someone could learn from someone elses death I'd hate my own family to read it about it in here. But if there were lessons to be learned then post it by all means.

Stay safe.

Mike

[ZigZagMarquis 9]

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my main motivation for not getting hurt now, is so people don't have the satisfaction of thinking they're right.

... some people do exist just to serve as a warning to others.

[pchapman 279]

Wmw999, Billvon, and Ron all brought up ideas about how we all do stupid things from time to time. So saying that the dead skydiver screwed up, isn't in itself saying the guy was any less able than anyone else. We ourselves might make the same mistake if we are inattentive, complacent, aren't on the ball, aren't as skilled, or just are having a bad day.

My take on the same concept can be shown visually --
I tend to think of it as two probability distribution curves, one for the performance level needed, and one for the performance level achieved. (See attachment.) Usually a person's performance level is greater than that needed to complete the task successfully or safely. But sometimes a person just doesn't apply sufficient skill to complete the task. Or fate gives someone a tough situation, which they can only overcome if very able or very lucky.

Sometimes it's hard to know whether someone's skills were sufficiently up to the task (like swooping), to be able to do it in reasonable safety day after day. We may only know from an accident that one day things didn't work out.

That's only two particular points under the curves in the diagram. Beyond that, more information is needed to if we are to guess what the curves really look like, what levels of performance might typically be required or achievable. If the information isn't easily available, we begin to speculate.