Sure because us AFF guys are both rich and lazy. You can learn to pack before you first AFF jump if your so inclined. The method has nothing to do with it, if you want to learn it really doesn't matter. ----------------------------------------------------------
Damn....its actually pretty hilarious to watch two people with one year each in the sport, and almost no jumps between them argue which method of learning is the best.
As a SL instructor.....I will tell you this.....AFF produces a freefall skydiver sooner. SL has its pluses too. AFF wasnt invented when I learned, I wish it was.
bozo
Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars.
AFF; static line jumps offer little more than canopy time...
Yep, 'cause learning to leave the airplane stable by yourself really isn't all that important, especially if there's an aircraft emergency where you have tons of time to get yourself stable
You're more likely to learn how to pack and spot with s/l than AFF, which are both as much a part of skydiving (or should be anyway) as being able to do turns, four ways or flips.
Ohhh, that was a punch in the stomach. Okay, I change my mind, go the cheap SL route and shoot for more skydives. My learning curve consisted of 5 SLs and 500 first year jumps...
I'm not arguing, I'm simply trying to let the OP know that s/l has its benefits too. It seems okay for people to bash s/l, call it old fashion, worthless and talk about all the disadvantages, but when someone talks about the disadvantages of AFF, it's like someone called the Pope unholy. Both methods have their benefits and both have their disadvantages.
In another post, I posed this question (sorry, it's long)
Quote
Here's a question for the instructors...Most AFF'ers with lower jump numbers seem to think that AFF is the way to go because you get the freefall and are better freefallers than s/l'ers. If you all plan to stay in the sport for years and years and eventually have thousands of jumps, or even hundreds of jumps...do you think it really matters, or matter that much, what you did on jump #1-10 or even 1-25?
When I made the decision to start learning to jump, I knew I was going to stick with it, so I didn't care how I learned, my decision was purely financial. I did look into both programs but figure in the long term, what difference would it make.
I'm asking this from the instructors because they've seen jumpers start via both programs and (hopefully) they've seen some of those jumpers celebrate milestone jumps like #100, #1000, etc. They would truly know, and not speculate.
Judging by the lack of responses to that question in that thread, I guess it doesn't really matter. So why can't we talk about the benefits of both programs, let the person decide what's best for them, and welcome them to the world of skydiving and support what they want to do? I tried my best to stay away from this thread, 'cause frankly the whole s/l vs AFF debate has been hashed out enough, but when misconceptions about s/l start getting posted, I what to be sure that people making their decision on their FJC have accurate info to make that decision. Definitely wasn't trying to argue (I'm a way more passive, non-confrontational person than any of you will know).
Yep, 'cause learning to leave the airplane stable by yourself really isn't all that important, especially if there's an aircraft emergency where you have tons of time to get yourself stable
I've never really understood that reasoning. AFF students learn to exit pretty much the same way static line students do (though more static line students probably learn to exit from smaller planes with different exits).
But what happens when a static line student goes fetal on exit? Something very different than when an AFF student does that. They both tumble, but only one gets a really nasty opening, or worse (read the fatality reports). And what did the static line student learn? Don't do that again! AFF gives the opportunity to learn the same exit without the same consequences of failure.
It is true that AFF students with ~10 jumps are typically more scared to exit low than static line students with the same number of jumps. So what? They're doing the same thing, but the AFF student has more experience. After 10 low exits, the AFF student isn't scared of em anymore either. But that first low exit is scary for both, probably moreso for the static line student that has never jumped before.
I've talked to a new A-licensed jumper that had done static line... she was afraid of altitude. The higher she went, the longer she was unstable in freefall. That's scarier to me than someone that's afraid to go out low but can exit reasonably stable or take a little delay to get stable and actually achieve stability!
Static line does have advantages, like being able to jump when the ceiling is low, but it sure looks like a rough way to learn.
I'm also a little freaked out by DZs that still use static line as opposed to IAD. Maybe it's just because I'm more familiar with IAD, but static line just gives me the heebie jeebies. Having someone hold my pilot chute while I'm on hanging from the strut of a cessna does too, but at least the gear is modern and the instructor is paying attention! Dave
If an AFF student goes unstable at pull time, do they not suffer the same consequence as a s/l going unstable while exiting?
The last thing going through my mind as the door open on my first static line jump sure wasn't, "Boy, that's low."
And your comment about gear is....
I'm done. I give up!
B_Dog...Forget anything anyone's said about the benefits of s/l. You should do AFF. You're putting yourself at a fatal risk by doing static line, and you'll be a FAR better skydiver doing AFF. Be sure to have fun and I can't wait to hear about how your first jump went.
I really don't understand why everyone gets so upset about this. He asked for opinions, give him yours. Don't say anyone else is wrong.
There's no need to get sarcastic about it. Your opinions differ, great, that's why I can have my opinion and you can have yours.
To the OP, disregard the arguments that everyone is having bout what is better. It has been said and the point is you'll get there either way. Don't worry about starting AFF then having to do a H+P and freaking out. Doing a H+P is like jumping from 10K and dumping right away. Altitude loss is minimal. I went AFF and absolutely love H+P's. Note the lowest I've gotten out is 3k, some would say that's still somewhat high, but it's weird getting out at/below your dump altitude.
The point is: to each his or her own. I do think the biggest thing though, is that distance to the DZ will play a big factor. If you wake up at say, 4am to make it to the 8am SL course, you'll be drained and not learning effectively. The closer DZ is the better option.
As has been said,
1. either one will get you there.
2. establishing yourself at a home DZ is a good thing.
3. each has benfits over the other.
Now, as Steverino pointed out, it would be good to figure out how YOU best learn and go with that.
For me, I learned better in the AFF program and here's why.
When I first started it was S/L because that was all that was around back then.
- I had major problems with spin control, heading maintenance and body position all the way through.
- I was in mortal fear on each jump being out there alone thinking, "well, let's see if doing this is what they were talking about. Nope, that made it worse."
- low altitude jumps didn't do much for my confidence of being able to handle EPs
When I came back after a long layoff, I went the AFF route because that was what was offered at my selected home DZ. What I learned better from AFF was:
- Immediate, in-air feedback on spin control, heading maintenance and body position.
- less stress knowing there was somebody right there with me that would at least TRY to save my ass if I screwed up.
- having a point of reference right there in my face was good for me
- pulling high helped with my confidence by knowing that at least I had some time to save my ass if my main screwed up.
- jumping high gave more time to learn freefall skills.
Hope this helps.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
>They both tumble, but only one gets a really nasty opening . . .
From my experience (JM'ing both sorts) an AFF student who is unstable at deployment time gets much, much nastier openings than a SL student who goes unstable on exit.
>It is true that AFF students with ~10 jumps are typically more
>scared to exit low than static line students with the same number of
>jumps.
Right. And most former AFF students with 100 jumps are more scared to exit low than former SL students with 10 jumps as well. It's all in what you're used to. Heck, nowadays an AFF grad will do one mandatory "hop and pop" from 6000 feet, and that will be it - he's never going to get out that low again! It was terrifying!
That's not an inherent problem with AFF, but it does highlight the need to do some 3000 foot exits at some point - which most AFF grads do not do.
>That's scarier to me than someone that's afraid to go out low but can exit reasonably stable . . .
SL students are MUCH better at stable exits than AFF students when they graduate. They just plain get more practice. By the time a SL student graduates, they've done a dozen or so exits, some intentionally unstable, but most stable. By the time an AFF student exits, he's done perhaps 3 unassisted stable exits.
>Having someone hold my pilot chute while I'm on hanging from
>the strut of a cessna does too, but at least the gear is modern and
>the instructor is paying attention!
?? Modern? You can get a brand-new student Telesis set up for AFF/ripcord/BOC, AFF/ripcord/hip, AFF/throwout/BOC, AFF/throwout/ROL, IAD, static line/PC assist or static line/direct bag.
But what happens when a static line student goes fetal on exit? Something very different than when an AFF student does that. They both tumble, but only one gets a really nasty opening, or worse (read the fatality reports).
There are fatality statistics that chart this?
Must go way back, I cannot recall many student fatalities (SL or AFF) as a direct result of opening from an unstable body position. There was that one adjustable harness that gave a while back but I understand that body position was not the culprit.
For all the proclamations about fatalities in this sport there are a surprising few number of them by contrast. If words were actions we would have a hell of a lot more fats to deal with annually.
-
Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…
Splitting hairs on a gnats ass about the learning and cost differences between AFF and S/L is a waste of your energy. Neither program offers benefits over the other that would be worth traveling 8x as far.
Unless the closer dropzone is some kind of leper colony (and I've heard nothing but good things about Taft) you'd be wise to go their regardless of which training method happens to be their fortay.
I agree with some of the others about going to the closer dropzone. I only live about 20 minutes away from my DZ and it's really nice to be able to look out the window and have a pretty good idea of what the weather is doing at the DZ. Making an 8 hour round trip only to have crap weather would be a pisser.
The closer DZ is also likely to be your home DZ, being with them from the start is a great way to get in and know everyone. And being close to that DZ, you can go hang out even when you can't jump... which helps you out more in the long-run than you could ever imagine.
Do the program that is 30 minutes away. Getting the jumps in are the biggest hurdle in my opinion.
I did a bit of both SL and AFF and they both have advantages and disadvantages, but I agree that distance is probably the swing factor here. Apart from anything else, think about the planning involved - 4 hours away, you're probably gonna need to overnight, and that is 8 hours total driving for each time you go jump! Half an hour away, you can even (depending on weather etc) go out for a jump or two even if you say have something else planned for the evening. Also... if you're new, even one or two jumps can be tiring - and then you have to face a 4-hr drive home? I remember a 2-hour drive home both tired and still buzzing from adrenaline - I don't think it was the safest drive I ever did
I switched from a DZ 2 hours away to one half an hour away and just started getting way more jumps in for these types of reasons.
I e-mailed someone at my local DZ regarding if they honored SL jumps done at another DZ. I didn't get a straightforward answer in the reply, so I'm assuming they don't really prefer students coming from elsewhere that have done SL.
The issue with hop 'n pops in the AFF vs. SL debate is one I've heard before. In the AFF program, is it usually the case you'll do just one jump from 5000' or so? I understand the importance of having practiced jumping out low in case of emergencies, so I'd be more than willing to ask my JMs if I could do a couple of 3000' exits.
Regarding spotting--I've also heard that SL students are better at it (or even know it to begin with) than AFF students. Actually, what is spotting, trying to pinpoint the DZ thousands of feet below so you jump right over it? I never did get a clear understanding of what it entailed. And if it's not a skill that's directly practiced in AFF, I sure wouldn't mind requesting some instruction on that as well.
Spotting is steering the plane to a spot that is safe to jump from. It involves:
-being able to look straight down (tough to learn)
-being able to check for traffic
-understanding freefall and canopy drift
-understanding winds-aloft reports
-being able to judge ground winds
-being able to see aircraft drift and crab angles
-understanding exit separation, jump run length and how far out you can be and still get back
-being able to communicate with the pilot
Often, at GPS drop zones, this is abbreviated to "look down and see if the spot is sorta OK when the light goes on." But there's a lot more to it than that.
[QUOTE]Often, at GPS drop zones, this is abbreviated to "look down and see if the spot is sorta OK when the light goes on." But there's a lot more to it than that. [/QUOTE]
Ohhh...when I did my tandem jumps, I remember seeing a green light at the back of the plane and wondering 'What the heck is that for?' (It never did light up, even when we went to jump, so they weren't using it I guess or something.)
I e-mailed someone at my local DZ regarding if they honored SL jumps done at another DZ. I didn't get a straightforward answer in the reply, so I'm assuming they don't really prefer students coming from elsewhere that have done SL.
most places don't really care for students moving around. They won't know your skill-level and as such will usually have to do extra jumps to determine it. The jumps will count towards your total jump numbers... but as far as the other skills... they won't know until you do the jumps and have the log entries and/or jump with you.
Quote
The issue with hop 'n pops in the AFF vs. SL debate is one I've heard before. In the AFF program, is it usually the case you'll do just one jump from 5000' or so? I understand the importance of having practiced jumping out low in case of emergencies, so I'd be more than willing to ask my JMs if I could do a couple of 3000' exits.
Your student progression to your A-license will include 1 or 2 hop and pops. It is part of the proficiencies.
Quote
Regarding spotting--I've also heard that SL students are better at it (or even know it to begin with) than AFF students. Actually, what is spotting, trying to pinpoint the DZ thousands of feet below so you jump right over it? I never did get a clear understanding of what it entailed. And if it's not a skill that's directly practiced in AFF, I sure wouldn't mind requesting some instruction on that as well.
Spotting is knowing where the dz is, where the plane is in relation to the dz, and what the different winds are doing between the ground and altitude, and making sure of clear airspace. Spotting combines all those factors so that you get back to the DZ. You should learn this during your student program.
[QUOTE]and what the different winds are doing between the ground and altitude[/QUOTE]
How can you determine ground wind from up at altitude though? Sure, you can look at conditions while you're on the ground before you take off, but what if ground conditions change by the time you're at altitude?
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fastphil 0
Ohhh, that was a punch in the stomach. Okay, I change my mind, go the cheap SL route and shoot for more skydives. My learning curve consisted of 5 SLs and 500 first year jumps...
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wildfan75 1
In another post, I posed this question (sorry, it's long)
Judging by the lack of responses to that question in that thread, I guess it doesn't really matter. So why can't we talk about the benefits of both programs, let the person decide what's best for them, and welcome them to the world of skydiving and support what they want to do? I tried my best to stay away from this thread, 'cause frankly the whole s/l vs AFF debate has been hashed out enough, but when misconceptions about s/l start getting posted, I what to be sure that people making their decision on their FJC have accurate info to make that decision. Definitely wasn't trying to argue (I'm a way more passive, non-confrontational person than any of you will know).
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pilotdave 0
I've never really understood that reasoning. AFF students learn to exit pretty much the same way static line students do (though more static line students probably learn to exit from smaller planes with different exits).
But what happens when a static line student goes fetal on exit? Something very different than when an AFF student does that. They both tumble, but only one gets a really nasty opening, or worse (read the fatality reports). And what did the static line student learn? Don't do that again! AFF gives the opportunity to learn the same exit without the same consequences of failure.
It is true that AFF students with ~10 jumps are typically more scared to exit low than static line students with the same number of jumps. So what? They're doing the same thing, but the AFF student has more experience. After 10 low exits, the AFF student isn't scared of em anymore either. But that first low exit is scary for both, probably moreso for the static line student that has never jumped before.
I've talked to a new A-licensed jumper that had done static line... she was afraid of altitude. The higher she went, the longer she was unstable in freefall. That's scarier to me than someone that's afraid to go out low but can exit reasonably stable or take a little delay to get stable and actually achieve stability!
Static line does have advantages, like being able to jump when the ceiling is low, but it sure looks like a rough way to learn.
I'm also a little freaked out by DZs that still use static line as opposed to IAD. Maybe it's just because I'm more familiar with IAD, but static line just gives me the heebie jeebies. Having someone hold my pilot chute while I'm on hanging from the strut of a cessna does too, but at least the gear is modern and the instructor is paying attention!
Dave
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wildfan75 1
The last thing going through my mind as the door open on my first static line jump sure wasn't, "Boy, that's low."
And your comment about gear is....
I'm done. I give up!
B_Dog...Forget anything anyone's said about the benefits of s/l. You should do AFF. You're putting yourself at a fatal risk by doing static line, and you'll be a FAR better skydiver doing AFF. Be sure to have fun and I can't wait to hear about how your first jump went.
Later...
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Chris-Ottawa 0
There's no need to get sarcastic about it. Your opinions differ, great, that's why I can have my opinion and you can have yours.
To the OP, disregard the arguments that everyone is having bout what is better. It has been said and the point is you'll get there either way. Don't worry about starting AFF then having to do a H+P and freaking out. Doing a H+P is like jumping from 10K and dumping right away. Altitude loss is minimal. I went AFF and absolutely love H+P's. Note the lowest I've gotten out is 3k, some would say that's still somewhat high, but it's weird getting out at/below your dump altitude.
The point is: to each his or her own. I do think the biggest thing though, is that distance to the DZ will play a big factor. If you wake up at say, 4am to make it to the 8am SL course, you'll be drained and not learning effectively. The closer DZ is the better option.
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popsjumper 2
As has been said,
1. either one will get you there.
2. establishing yourself at a home DZ is a good thing.
3. each has benfits over the other.
Now, as Steverino pointed out, it would be good to figure out how YOU best learn and go with that.
For me, I learned better in the AFF program and here's why.
When I first started it was S/L because that was all that was around back then.
- I had major problems with spin control, heading maintenance and body position all the way through.
- I was in mortal fear on each jump being out there alone thinking, "well, let's see if doing this is what they were talking about. Nope, that made it worse."
- low altitude jumps didn't do much for my confidence of being able to handle EPs
When I came back after a long layoff, I went the AFF route because that was what was offered at my selected home DZ. What I learned better from AFF was:
- Immediate, in-air feedback on spin control, heading maintenance and body position.
- less stress knowing there was somebody right there with me that would at least TRY to save my ass if I screwed up.
- having a point of reference right there in my face was good for me
- pulling high helped with my confidence by knowing that at least I had some time to save my ass if my main screwed up.
- jumping high gave more time to learn freefall skills.
Hope this helps.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
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billvon 2,991
From my experience (JM'ing both sorts) an AFF student who is unstable at deployment time gets much, much nastier openings than a SL student who goes unstable on exit.
>It is true that AFF students with ~10 jumps are typically more
>scared to exit low than static line students with the same number of
>jumps.
Right. And most former AFF students with 100 jumps are more scared to exit low than former SL students with 10 jumps as well. It's all in what you're used to. Heck, nowadays an AFF grad will do one mandatory "hop and pop" from 6000 feet, and that will be it - he's never going to get out that low again! It was terrifying!
That's not an inherent problem with AFF, but it does highlight the need to do some 3000 foot exits at some point - which most AFF grads do not do.
>That's scarier to me than someone that's afraid to go out low but can exit reasonably stable . . .
SL students are MUCH better at stable exits than AFF students when they graduate. They just plain get more practice. By the time a SL student graduates, they've done a dozen or so exits, some intentionally unstable, but most stable. By the time an AFF student exits, he's done perhaps 3 unassisted stable exits.
>Having someone hold my pilot chute while I'm on hanging from
>the strut of a cessna does too, but at least the gear is modern and
>the instructor is paying attention!
?? Modern? You can get a brand-new student Telesis set up for AFF/ripcord/BOC, AFF/ripcord/hip, AFF/throwout/BOC, AFF/throwout/ROL, IAD, static line/PC assist or static line/direct bag.
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AFFI 0
There are fatality statistics that chart this?
Must go way back, I cannot recall many student fatalities (SL or AFF) as a direct result of opening from an unstable body position. There was that one adjustable harness that gave a while back but I understand that body position was not the culprit.
For all the proclamations about fatalities in this sport there are a surprising few number of them by contrast. If words were actions we would have a hell of a lot more fats to deal with annually.
-
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…
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champu 1
Unless the closer dropzone is some kind of leper colony (and I've heard nothing but good things about Taft) you'd be wise to go their regardless of which training method happens to be their fortay.
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kris2extreme 0
The closer DZ is also likely to be your home DZ, being with them from the start is a great way to get in and know everyone. And being close to that DZ, you can go hang out even when you can't jump... which helps you out more in the long-run than you could ever imagine.
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Orange1 0
I did a bit of both SL and AFF and they both have advantages and disadvantages, but I agree that distance is probably the swing factor here. Apart from anything else, think about the planning involved - 4 hours away, you're probably gonna need to overnight, and that is 8 hours total driving for each time you go jump! Half an hour away, you can even (depending on weather etc) go out for a jump or two even if you say have something else planned for the evening. Also... if you're new, even one or two jumps can be tiring - and then you have to face a 4-hr drive home? I remember a 2-hour drive home both tired and still buzzing from adrenaline - I don't think it was the safest drive I ever did
I switched from a DZ 2 hours away to one half an hour away and just started getting way more jumps in for these types of reasons.
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b_dog 0
The issue with hop 'n pops in the AFF vs. SL debate is one I've heard before. In the AFF program, is it usually the case you'll do just one jump from 5000' or so? I understand the importance of having practiced jumping out low in case of emergencies, so I'd be more than willing to ask my JMs if I could do a couple of 3000' exits.
Regarding spotting--I've also heard that SL students are better at it (or even know it to begin with) than AFF students. Actually, what is spotting, trying to pinpoint the DZ thousands of feet below so you jump right over it? I never did get a clear understanding of what it entailed. And if it's not a skill that's directly practiced in AFF, I sure wouldn't mind requesting some instruction on that as well.
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billvon 2,991
Spotting is steering the plane to a spot that is safe to jump from. It involves:
-being able to look straight down (tough to learn)
-being able to check for traffic
-understanding freefall and canopy drift
-understanding winds-aloft reports
-being able to judge ground winds
-being able to see aircraft drift and crab angles
-understanding exit separation, jump run length and how far out you can be and still get back
-being able to communicate with the pilot
Often, at GPS drop zones, this is abbreviated to "look down and see if the spot is sorta OK when the light goes on." But there's a lot more to it than that.
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b_dog 0
Ohhh...when I did my tandem jumps, I remember seeing a green light at the back of the plane and wondering 'What the heck is that for?' (It never did light up, even when we went to jump, so they weren't using it I guess or something.)
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kris2extreme 0
most places don't really care for students moving around. They won't know your skill-level and as such will usually have to do extra jumps to determine it. The jumps will count towards your total jump numbers... but as far as the other skills... they won't know until you do the jumps and have the log entries and/or jump with you.
Your student progression to your A-license will include 1 or 2 hop and pops. It is part of the proficiencies.
Spotting is knowing where the dz is, where the plane is in relation to the dz, and what the different winds are doing between the ground and altitude, and making sure of clear airspace. Spotting combines all those factors so that you get back to the DZ. You should learn this during your student program.
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b_dog 0
How can you determine ground wind from up at altitude though? Sure, you can look at conditions while you're on the ground before you take off, but what if ground conditions change by the time you're at altitude?
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