Titusville Manifest and Sky Gods new deployment altitudes

[freekflyguy 0]

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This is a thread about the quality of our life. I am a fun jumper. I am not a parachute industry professional, I don’t have ambitions of becoming a tandem master. I want to jump for fun. Bad service and bad attitudes of service providers spoil my fun.

It certainly has no impact on the quality of my life.

This is a thread about you being pissed at the way YOU were treated by the manifester (badly it seems) and how you threw your teddy in the corner and walked of in a huff (like a spoilt child who didnt get their way) and wanted those on DZ.com who could be bothered to read your post to know.

Just out of interest do you write a letter to MacDonalds or (insert fast food outlet of choice) and to the body governing said industry every time you get bad service???

It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice.

[jraf 0]

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It certainly has no impact on the quality of my life.

I respectfully disagree. If you are a fun jumper DZ service levels affect you. One of these days you will get a DZ employee who will rub your nose in doodoo and you might not like it.

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This is a thread about you being pissed at the way YOU were treated by the manifester (badly it seems) and how you threw your teddy in the corner and walked of in a huff (like a spoilt child who didnt get their way) and wanted those on DZ.com who could be bothered to read your post to know.

Here I partially agree. I demand the good service based on my experience, but believe me I saw other people mistreated too. Either we live in different worlds (countries definitely) or you have lived a very shielded life up to now. I see nothing wrong in demanding courteous and respectful service, do you?

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Just out of interest do you write a letter to MacDonalds or (insert fast food outlet of choice) and to the body governing said industry every time you get bad service???

The fact aside that I don’t frequent McDonalds, yes! When I get bad service at a place of service I demand satisfaction. When it is a corporation I will go all the way up the food chain to get the situation corrected. I expect quality for my money, don’t you? Do you find it wrong to strive for better service? Do you think DZ staff should treat us poorly when they are having a bad day? Do you think skydiver service levels should be based on jump numbers, friendships and clique affiliations? I would rather we all be treated with professional courtesy and respect

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[popsjumper 2]

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...I am going to step in here and answer for Teason on this question. NO he does not. Pops that is better left to another thread I think, and if you do a search you will find that Teason has had some very real issues with Skyride...now back to your regularly scheduled program.

OK..it was out of line. Sorry.

Damn..I've been bitch-slapped by Ms Barnhouse!
Thanks, Betsy...may I have another?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[rehmwa 2]

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OK once more for the hard of thinking.

Ahhh, now it turns insulting.

I think your analogy of the gym membership is crappy - unless you sell memberships or day passes (like Mullin's $99 jump days/weekends) to your DZ instead of individual jump tickets. I think your position is wrong.

I understand your position, but I think it's wrong. Is that simple enough?

I don't recommend you change anything if your customers are good with that (if they even know about it), just voicing an opinion. Take it personal if you want.

So, for the 'hard of thinking' - when it's time to leave a DZ (for ANY reason - I don't care if the customer suddenly gets the shits and has to leave) unused tickets should be refunded.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[freekflyguy 0]

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I respectfully disagree. If you are a fun jumper DZ service levels affect you. One of these days you will get a DZ employee who will rub your nose in doodoo and you might not like it.

I have certainly been on the wrong side of DZ employees, and I have been the DZ employee who has been less than courteous, although I do make a point of appologising should it happen.

I however understand that the people who work at the DZ's I jump or work at are not doing it for any other reason than their love of the sport and their desire to be part of the club they work at.

At Netheravon I get paid £39 for taking a tandem student, £50 for flying camera that is per jump, on a good weekend I can walk away from reception with £600 in my rocket.

The ladies who run manifest, reception, coordinate tandems, aff, SL students etc get paid that a day (£30 not £600).

Yes they get free jumps, but they dont make more than 1 or 2 a weekend, and they tend to get free brews and scoff when they are working, but on the whole its not a fiscal descicion to do the important job they do.

I think we all agree that they are the backbone of the DZ and although they should do the job professionally and without reproach, occasionally they let the fascade slip.

You were treated poorly and exercised your right to take your business else where, good for you.

I hope you dont experience simmilar rudeness at other DZ's.

BTW I live in the UK so poor service is a national sport over here

It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice.

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[steve1 5]

It sounds to me like Greg Nardi needs to fire some people. Again, I'll bet he doesn't realize that customers are being run off by some rude employees.

As far as going low. I know that Greg has more insight into this than most jumpers. The lowest I have ever hummed it down to was 500 ft, with a para-commander back in about 74. Greg was on that load, and he wasn't much higher than I was. Yes, we were all grounded for a while, and we knew we had done wrong. And wee all accepted our punishment without complaining.

Greg, is also one of the most generous people I know. That's why I question why there may be no reinversement on some jump tickets. I remember when he owned a restauraunt here in Montana. My money was no good in that place. Whatever I ordered it was always free when Greg was around. I was a fellow jumper, and he was looking out for me.

His brother Steve needs a kidney now, and Greg was first on the list to donate one of his. I've made a lot of jumps with both of these Nardis. and they are both first rate people. That's why it bothers me that people are bad mouthing Titusville. I'll bet Greg doesn't have a clue what's going on....Steve1

[NewGuy2005 53]

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This is a thread about the quality of our life.

No it's not. It's a thread about having "The Last Word."

[VectorBoy 0]

Some may see DZ's as businesses, like rental car places or restaraunts. I watched several friends of mine die at DZ's, and was amazed at how everyone pulled together not for the dead person, but for people like me who were dealing with it. I've taught people to skydive, saved perhaps one life, and potentially had my life saved a few times by people who were more aware than I was. Most of my best friends are skydivers, and I met my wife skydiving. I guess, in my view, I've gotten more than a few free french fries from skydiving, and have given more than a few tips for good service. To me, that makes it something more than a business.

[bbarnhouse 0]

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Damn..I've been bitch-slapped by Ms Barnhouse!
Thanks, Betsy...may I have another?

Nuh uh just pixied in the nicest possible way!

Oh another? Ummm my kind of man

[Madison 0]

Jraf,
It seems very apparant to me that all of this could have been avoided had you done what you should've in the first place....CRW! Since you didn't, there's the proof...you did pull too low!!

Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want.

[jraf 0]

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Jraf,
It seems very apparant to me that all of this could have been avoided had you done what you should've in the first place....CRW! Since you didn't, there's the proof...you did pull too low!!

You ROCK...and in this particular case you are right! I pulled way below CRW altitude

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[billvon 3,058]

>I see your point but you are referring to a relationship based
>on friendship. A long career with a large group of friends from all
>walks of life who skydive or somehow support this activity.

Not even that.

A few years back I walked onto a DZ. Got my USPA card checked, and the guy checking it said "hey, you're an AFF-I?" "Yep," I said. "Want to do a Level-2? We're really, really shorthanded today, and the loads are backed up." "Do you teach syllabus AFF?" I asked. "Yeah," he said.

Did the AFF, and a few more that day. That night we went out to dinner; a lot of people bought me beer and food. Had an awesome time.

Now, before I got there I had never met any of these people. I knew people who knew them, but that was about it. There was no "relationship based on friendship" or "long career with a large group of friends." There was just me and a new DZ with a bunch of skydivers - and that was enough. That's why skydiving, to me, is something more than a service industry.

Now, I did call ahead, and they said they'd be jumping that day. "Come on out! We'll get you up!" When I heard the loads were backed up I could have gotten pissed. As another poster said - I could have demanded satisfaction for the poor level of service. After all, I called!

But for me skydiving doesn't work like that, and I've had a lot more fun treating skydiving as an extended (sometimes dysfunctional) family than as a business.

>My circle just doesn't have too many DZOs in it. Maybe in time
>that will change.

I've found that it's not "being friends with the DZO" or anything like that. DZO's do not skydiving make. Skydiving is you, and me, and Amy, and Molly, and Pat, and Scott far more than it's Melanie and Pat. It's even that struggling level-3 student; he may be as big a part of skydiving as his instructor.

And after a while, what you put into it DOES start to come back to you in strange ways. There are a few bars in San Diego where I can drink for free because a waitress/bartender/owner did an AFF with me. At boogies I run into people I organized for at the WFFC, and they remember jumping with me back when they were starting out. Heck, a lot of them are better than me now! Two friends of mine from Perris are now on Airspeed, and it's both cool to see them progress so far and to know that they were once down at my skill level. One of the proudest moments I had early on in my instructing career was taking a friend of mine through AFF - and then a year later looking over at her as reserve-side JM on a level 1 we were doing.

That's what skydiving is for me. I hope I can leave a legacy of helping a few people out - because like Twardo mentioned, I've already gotten back far more than I put into it. I'd hate to "demand prompt courteous customer service" and in return merely get "satisfaction for my money." What kind of legacy would that leave? I have a feeling that it works both ways - if a jumper does that, the grief they give people (even a fat, stupid manifestor) will come back to them tenfold.

And that is most definitely not like a rental car company.

>Realize that your group and my group of friends can't keep the
>sport alive by themselves. There are a great many jumpers not part
>of any friendship circle that are regarded simply as customers. For
>what ever reason they are not fitting into larger friendship circles . . .

I hope that doesn't happen too often. If it does, I think that's a failure of people like you and me. My (or your) local group of friends can't keep skydiving going - but our extended family can, because there are thousands of them all over the world. I think it's up to us to maintain that extended family so we don't turn into "just a bunch of customers."

[jraf 0]

Fun jumpers it appears are at the bottom of the Titusville DZ priority lists.

Tandems are the money makers and so they take first place.

Videographers go with tandems.

AFF Students bring more money too.

Fun jumpers are just the $4 a jump plane fillers and a pain in the neck.

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[RB_Hammer 0]

Been following this thread with a mixture of amusement and concern. billvon's comments make me feel that I am indeed going to be joining a community like the HD MC community that I found when I started riding with the HOG group.
Thanks billvon!

"I'm not lost. I don't know where I'm going, but there's no sense in being late."
Mathew Quigley

[slug 1]

Hi J

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"As a matter of fact if you read what I wrote carefully you would notice that the letter of complaint I sent to the USPA was coppied to Titusville "

SAY WHAT!!!!!!!!!

Do you really expect a response from USPA, Or a gentle reminder from USPA to titusville to play be the "rules" with a CC to you

I Think We used to use 15 fps as a normal rate of descent under a open canopy. Without a laser range finder, a watch, or counting imo would be quantative number that could be used to discusss opening alt. Opening below the tree line is another sign of a low opening.

He said, she said, someone opened at X ft based on visual experience isn't worth squat. The first time someone looks like their opening low could be bad boy or a bad guess. The second time the person jumps and looks like a low pull put a stop watch on them. Then there is a point of discusion if the numbers agree with someones WAG.

We were dirt diving and had a reserve open behind us very close and loud. we immediatly started counting I think we got to 15 sec of air time before the student landed. There were lots of different opinions on opening alt via cypress but only two of us were counting and we both agreed within 30 ft.

[freekflyguy 0]

no its not

It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice.

[shropshire 0]

is to

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[airtwardo 7]

Without a laser range finder, a watch, or counting imo would be quantitative number that could be used to discuss opening alt...

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I've heard that following an intentional 'grand opening'
SOME 'old guys' would yank a toggle and spin the rest of the way down...

...really throws off the timing / counting thing!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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[stratostar 5]

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someone opened at X ft based on visual experience isn't worth squat.

I don't really agree with ya here, and I know you have been around long enough to know good and well what deployment at a 1000 ft or lower looks like.
Anyone who has been in this sport for a long time can spot a truly low deployment.

I would agree with you that it's some what harded to tell between 3k and 2.5 or 2k, hell even opening a 2k can look like 1.5, even more so to the many of todays jumpers who are so use to seeing everyone open at 3 and above, so when a jumper opens a container at 2 and gets a canopy at 1.5 it freaks a lot of them out and looks lower.

I have seen many a low deployment in my time and it was rather clear it was. If I can count your fingers without my glasses on your LOW...

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[rickanderson 0]

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The bottom line is our quality of life. We should require that the USPA hold affiliated DZ accountable for the service levels that they pledge to in the Skydiving Service Code of Conduct.

what is that!? uspa has a code of conduct? what is that for? does sombody think they can do something about drop zones?

[jraf 0]

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what is that!? uspa has a code of conduct? what is that for? does sombody think they can do something about drop zones?

The USPA is an organization that is based on a pretty sound theoretical foundation. Sadly enough skydivers do not exercise their right to pressure the USPA to do things for them.

Richard Schachner called me and said that basically he can’t do anything about the Titusville DZ. Well I beg to differ. The Titusville DZ is a USPA group member. The USPA has every power to run an inquiry into the incident and make a recommendation to the executive board. If the Titusville DZ does not want to cooperate with an inquiry or if they are found wrong then the USPA executive committee can withdraw their accreditation. It is as simple as that.

Now that was the theory. In practice skydivers have allowed the USPA to become a sub-division of the PIA. We have allowed that to happen by our inertia. We have to realize that we are paying, card carrying members of the USPA. We have rights and we should demand our rights.

The Titusville DZ brakes two fundamental points of the Skydiving Service Code of Conduct:
1. The pledge to operate safely as they have refused our elected USPA regional director Richard Schachner to assign or help them assign an S&TA. Hence they operate without an S&TA i.e: there is no competent assigned safety representative.
2. The pledge of Honesty, Integrity and Fairness by accusing people of wrongdoing based on hearsay and other numerous unfair practices.

That to me sounds looks like grounds to a USPA inquiry. If DZs knew that we are willing to exercise our rights as USAP members then the industry would be better off and skydivers would be able to enjoy their pastime a little more.

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[Thanatos340 1]

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That to me sounds looks like grounds to a USPA inquiry.

Let me see if I understand you here..

Someone was Rude to you, Now you think there should be a USPA inquiry??

Im starting to see why someone may have been rude to you to begin with.

[justinb138 0]

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If the Titusville DZ does not want to cooperate with an inquiry or if they are found wrong then the USPA executive committee can withdraw their accreditation. It is as simple as that.

So if someone calls the USPA and tells them you were acting like an ass at at DZ somewhere, should they revoke your USPA membership?

[jraf 0]

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Let me see if I understand you here..

Someone was Rude to you, Now you think there should be a USPA inquiry??

Im starting to see why someone may have been rude to you to begin with.

As you hopefully have notice the issue is much deeper than someone being rude to me. I am actually trying to mobilize my fellow fun jumpers to start standing up for our rights. Do you find that wrong?

Please tell me, do you not see the many problems that our sport is going through because we are just willing to accept what people under normal circumstances would never hear of? We let too many things slide because we are worried that if we stir the DZO may blackball us. We let to many things slide because they are done by a fellow jumper who works as a tandem instructor or manifest employee. I as this: when was the last time you got a free ticket to altitude from your DZO because the weather was nice?

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[jraf 0]

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So if someone calls the USPA and tells them you were acting like an ass at at DZ somewhere, should they revoke your USPA membership?

As you well know individual USPA privileges have been revoked temporarily or permanently. If I act against what I signed for in the USPA membership application, then of course the USPA has every right to revoke my membership.

Having said that: acting like an ass is not part of that application. What more I was polite at Titusville, packed my canopy and went home. I_was_polite.

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275