Titusville Manifest and Sky Gods new deployment altitudes

[pash 0]

>The USPA has every power to run an inquiry into >the incident and make a recommendation to the >executive board. If the Titusville DZ does not want >to cooperate with an inquiry or if they are found >wrong then the USPA executive committee can >withdraw their accreditation. It is as simple as that.

you voiced your concerns and raised the issue. I would move on. Rude people suck. Litigious people do too.

jason

[bozo 0]

  Quote

  Quote

someone opened at X ft based on visual experience isn't worth squat.

I don't really agree with ya here, and I know you have been around long enough to know good and well what deployment at a 1000 ft or lower looks like.
Anyone who has been in this sport for a long time can spot a truly low deployment.
---------------------------------------------------------


Yeah no shit.....you can see the teeth in the open mouths of the people looking up at you.

bozo
Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars.

• Quote

[Remster 30]

  Quote

As you hopefully have notice the issue is much deeper than someone being rude to me.

I guess I dont see the big conspiracy either...

Remster

[jarrodh 0]

Wow this thread blew up

2 BITS....4 BITS....6 BITS....A DOLLAR!....ALL FOR THE GATORS....STAND UP AND HOLLER!!!!

[Thanatos340 1]

  Quote

As you hopefully have notice the issue is much deeper than someone being rude to me.

Not Really.
I see Someone thought you pulled low and said something to you about it. You got offened. Sorry, I just dont see this as a Major plague on our sport.

Poor service??? Go elsewhere.
Sounds like that is what you did. Problem solved.

  Quote

when was the last time you got a free ticket to altitude from your DZO because the weather was nice?

Uhh.. Last April I think. If fact the entire weekend was Free Jumps all weekend for everyone that showed up.

[jraf 0]

  Quote

I guess I dont see the big conspiracy either...

It has nothing to do with a conspiracy. It is a matter of continuous bad service. It is a matter of not caring for customers.

Although sparked by something that happened to me recently at the Titusville DZ, believe me it was just the cherry on the pie. And as you noticed there are more people who have received bad service.
Do you like crappy service at a DZ?

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[MikeForsythe 0]

I went to Titusville once. Had a bad experience, discussed it with them, left and have never gone back or referred anyone to them. It has cost them ever since.

That being said, you are out of place to bring a persons size or gender into the conversations as it has no relevance on the subject except to be hurtful.

As to your rights at the DZ, they are only what the DZO gives you. Skydiving is a privilege, not a right. Any DZO has the same right as any other business to refuse service to anyone for any reason.

Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is!

[billvon 3,064]

> I am actually trying to mobilize my fellow fun jumpers to start
> standing up for our rights. Do you find that wrong?

Asking for what you want - not wrong

Starting a new "entitlement" movement in which we claim we are entitled to prompt, courteous service no matter what's going on at the DZ - wrong

>We let too many things slide because we are worried that if we
>stir the DZO may blackball us.

It sounds like "letting things slide" is exactly what you're talking about.

"Hey, that guy's pulling low!"
"Oh, well, better not say anything or he'll complain to USPA."

"And that guy is jumping a Katana 120 at 80 jumps!"
"Keep it to yourself! Pointing that out might make him feel like a bad canopy pilot."

"There's no way that jumper should be on a 20-way. He's never done RW."
"Shhhh, we don't want him to think we're elitist."


>I as this: when was the last time you got a free ticket to
>altitude from your DZO because the weather was nice?

"Because the weather was nice?" Never. When was the last time I got a free ticket to altitude because there was room on the load? Last month.

You are not entitled to free tickets. Good business owners will not give you stuff for free. But your friends might.

[NWFlyer 2]

  Quote

I went to Titusville once. Had a bad experience, discussed it with them, left and have never gone back or referred anyone to them. It has cost them ever since.

What a novel way to deal with a service problem. And look, it only took you one post to describe it.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[jraf 0]

Bill, while you have described many good points I say this. A good USPA accredited DZ will have an S&TA who will make appropriate points to people who he thinks are not being safe. I would never complain about an S&TA discussing things with me. Titusville does not have an S&TA. They have manifest hands who have heard something from someone and make uneducated arbitrary decisions like the: “I want to see you under a fully open canopy at 3,000 feet” that I have heard last Sunday.

I really think you misunderstood my point. Do you think that skydivers exercising their right as USPA members are wrong? What is the USPA there for?

As you know all in life is about a delicate balance. The skydivers have their rights. The DZs have their rights. Currently I see this as being off kilter. Or do you think that a regional director of the USPA not being able to enforce the S&TA rule is the way it should be. If so, I respectfully disagree.

Last but not least, you are a lucky guy with the free jumps. You may say it’s my attitude, but guess what – I received none.

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[mirage62 0]

  Quote

There are those who call me a sexist and question my integrity. To you dear friends I have nothing to say. I have contempt for such remarks.

Good as long as you have " contempt for such remarks" and not for Kevin. He's well know by lot's of people here. Has two world records, has been jumping for years AND we know who he is.

But hey Skymama says your a stand up guy so I guess your okay. Although I've seen her get more than a little pissed over comments like you made.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[billvon 3,064]

>A good USPA accredited DZ will have an S&TA who will make
>appropriate points to people who he thinks are not being safe.

I would disagree there. Small DZ's often don't have S+TA's available, which means other people (instructors, experienced jumpers, manifesters) have to sometimes fill that role. It's part of our responsibility as experienced jumpers (IMO.)

OTOH at Perris you can't swing a dead cat without hitting an S+TA.

>Do you think that skydivers exercising their right as USPA members are wrong?

I don't think we get any "rights" as USPA members, beyond what we're officially cleared to do after we pass each level/course.

>What is the USPA there for?

Primarily to promulgate safe skydiving, by publishing accepted standards for student training and guidelines for experienced jumpers. Also to run competitions.

[Remster 30]

  Quote

look, it only took you one post to describe it.

Like.. whoa...

Remster

[jeffallen 0]

Jraf, sorry you had a bad experiance at Titusville. This is my home DZ since I started jumping over 4 years ago. As far as I know there are no rules about how low you should deploy, but I will tell you this, If fellow jumpers or staff see a concern with a fellow jumper, someone will step up and express their concerns, right or not, you should feel good someone is trying to look out for us. We have a good mix of students to very experianced people, and we all look out for each other, even visitors.
I have been to most of the major DZs around Florida and not found one to be perfect in every way, including saftey issues, staff attitudes and other things,INCLUDING TITUSVILLE.
The Manifest lady you are speaking of is a friend of mine, a fellow jumper, and a hell of good person.I do not think the "large" comment was necessary to get your point across.
One point you are right on is Tandems and students make more of a profit for the DZ. If this is what it take to keep a fast King Air going to 15 and 18K, keep them comming.Most people I know have a good time at Titusville, some do not. Sounds like it may not be the right place for you. Stay safe, Jeff

[Patty 0]

After reading a few of these posts, I thought it might be time to get the real story out about the low pulling incident at Skydive Space Center in Titusville.

My name is Greg Nardi and I am the DZO at Space Center. I wasn't at Space Center at the time but I have spoken to several of my staff and fun jumpers who were, and here are the facts as I have found them.

The jumper involved is named Hans Saykicwicz. He is a B license holder and as of Jan 2006 - according to his waiver, he had 380 jumps total. Hans has been at Space Center ocassionally and according to all of the senior staff ( many with well over 10,000 jumps) he has always had a problem with pulling low. He is also known to have a bit of a bulletproof attitude. He has been approached many times by other jumpers and asked to keep his pull altitude a little higher. These jumpers have been concerned for Hans' safety and for the safety of others. On the day Hans was asked to leave... he was asked several times to keep his pull altitude up. He was repeatedly below 2000 feet and he continued to pull low after being asked not to. Our manifest was concerened for everyone's safety and enough people complained about Hans that she felt it was the right thing to do and asked Hans to leave. If Hans would have agreed to pull a little higher he would still be jumping there.

Incidentally, the manifestor in this case is one of the nicest people I know, she has been at Space Center for over 10 years and EVERYONE LOVES HER!! She really cares about jumpers and I have never heard anyone say anything bad about her. I can guarantee you if Hans couldn't get along with her he may have some other issues - if you know what I mean. In the 6 years that I have owned Skydive Space Center, I think Hans has the distinction of being the only jumper to ever be asked to leave because of pulling low.

We don't require anybody to pull at 4,000 feet or 3,000 feet. But when we see a jumper putting himself or others in jeopardy then we have an obligation to try and correct the problem. Hans may actually think he is pulling higher than he is... many times depending on someones awareness level.. they will look at their altimeter at 3,000 feet and begin their pull sequence. By the time they decide to pull, reach back, find their pilot chute, throw their pilot chute, and after the a normal deployment, they can be below 2000 feet. This depends on how quickly people react to the decision to pull. The altitude that really matters is how high you are when your parachute opens. Not what your altimeter said the last time you looked at it!!

Generally speaking, if someone is opening consistantly lower that they think, they might be the person that may need a little more time in the event of a malfunction.

At Skydive Space Center the lowest altitude we jump from is 15,000 feet. AGL!! Its not like we aren't getting enough freefall. After 70 seconds of freefall what is Hans doing for the last 2 or 3 seconds that is worth being really low after a malfunction, or risk a cypress fire. ( Although Hans doesn't jump one)

Now, I realize that when some people get 400 or 500 jumps.. ...somehow they become the best skydiver they know....but if any of us are being told repeatedly by some very very experienced instructors and jumpers that we might want to increase our safety margin,... I think it is wise to listen!! ... while listening is still an activity that we are able to perform... due to the fact that our brains are NOT YET scattered across the drop zone and our ears are still attached to our skull!!

OK, there is my one post for this decade.....BE SAFE AND BE NICE!!

Greg Nardi

[bozo 0]

  Quote

After reading a few of these posts, I thought it might be time to get the real story out about the low pulling incident at Skydive Space Center in Titusville.

My name is Greg Nardi and I am the DZO at Space Center. I wasn't at Space Center at the time but I have spoken to several of my staff and fun jumpers who were, and here are the facts as I have found them.
-----------------------------------------------------------

Just like in a bad divorce theres always another side to the story.
Jraf.....I read this whole thread.....and in this one post you come out looking like shit.
As the Bard once said "Me thinks he doth protest too much."

bozo
Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars.

• Quote

[jeffallen 0]

Well said Greg. Jeff Allen

[piisfish 140]

Ok so now everything seems to have been said about the subject.

I'll try and help Jraf out on the Large Manifest Lady issue...

I'm sure he meant "the lady working at the large manifest" and not "the large lady working at manifest" like you all suggest

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[mbondvegas 0]

  Quote

In other words my learned friend according to you I am either a liar or both my instruments are wrong. Congratulations on your keen senses.

Thanks...I knew you would understand that my keen eyes are way more accurate than any alti.

  Quote

A person standing on the ground or especially moving in the air should not even attempt to guestimate other peoples altitudes. You have not seen my altimeter on opening so you really no nothing of it. That is the bottom line.

Why should I not attempt? Come on, maybe none of us on the ground or your group in the air can tell the difference between 1500 and 1200 but there is a HUGE difference in your proposed pull alti of 3K versus what we all witnessed.

Whatever though. I actually don't care. I support your right to pull low, hook youself into the ground or any other thing you want to do. I only spoke up to defend the DZ because I feel you have misrepresented the facts.

- - -
I am not afraid of tomorrow, for I have seen yesterday and I love today.

[Liemberg 0]

Let me see if I can get this straight:

If I put a monkey in charge of my place, you must obey the monkey or leave my place - whatever the size of your Babalui.

In your case (as with a lot of other skydivers) a large female gorilla seems not like such a bad plan to go with...

Just picture the conversation:

Large Female Gorilla: "You were way to low on that pull - I could spot your Babalui!"
Jungleman: "That doesn't mean shit - I am widely known for the enormous size of my Babalui - They don't call me Jungleman for nothing!"
Large Female Gorilla: "I'm not Impressed - as a Female Gorilla I must say I have seen larger ones..."
Jungleman: "I'l write a letter of complaint! I have the biggest Babalui in the Northern hemisphere"
Large Female Gorilla: "Don't come around here anymore - next time I chew them of and use them as an appetiser or a small snack in between meals..."
Jungleman:"Now you've done it! Not only will I write a letter of complaint but I'll also flash my Babalui all over the internet - everybody will be impressed and even you will have to admit that they are huge! Besides, what do monkeys know about skydiving?"
Large Female Gorilla:"Have a nice day and pleeeezzzz close the office door behind you on your way out...
BTW: You would be surprised to see what a well instructed monkey with a stopwatch can accomplish...


All joking aside, although I make it a point to have conversations about opening altitudes one on one in the privacy of my office you can bet your sweet Babalui that I am "the male silverback" in that office - whatever you may think you saw on your altimeter or heard from your beeper. That said, I can envision situations where I would ask someone else to speak to a person, prior to his next jump or whatever,since I might be occupied elsewhere.

Usually it is a bad plan though, knowing the fuse lenght of most participants - especially insecure junglemen that worry about the size of their Babalui and Female Gorillas on PMS...

But of course you were entitled to a refund on your jumptickets, that goes without saying...

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[stratostar 5]

  Quote

Yeah no shit.....you can see the teeth in the open mouths of the people looking up at you.

Yea and waving off is to tell those in the landing area to clear out...

To-
Mr. Nardi, thanks for the chime in and offering your side of the story.
Me think this thread has run it's course.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[MikeForsythe 0]

  Quote

Yea and waving off is to tell those in the landing area to clear out...

ROTFLMAO
Now that was priceless

Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is!

[VectorBoy 0]

>that day. "Come on out! We'll get you up!" When I >hDid the AFF, and a few more that day. That night >we went out to dinner; a lot of people bought me >beer and food. Had an awesome time.

>But for me skydiving doesn't work like that, and I've >had a lot more fun treating skydiving as an extended >(sometimes dysfunctional) family than as a business.

This is not uncommon. Similar events have happed to myself and others that I have known it does lend a family bonding feeling. Bill I have no doubt that you would have helped out whether you were on a DZ, an understaffed dive vacation boat, a start-up FBO's flight school, or Camping etc. Jumpers are some of the most generous people I've met.



There are a great many jumpers not part
>of any friendship circle that are regarded simply as customers. For
>what ever reason they are not fitting into larger friendship circles . . .

I hope that doesn't happen too often. If it does, I think that's a failure of people like you and me. My (or your) local group of friends can't keep skydiving going - but our extended family can, because there are thousands of them all over the world. I think it's up to us to maintain that extended family so we don't turn into "just a bunch of customers."

[stratostar 5]

my landing area"

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[recovercrachead 0]

Thats it pull his uspa card for one month. I have seen it done with Vinnie the Rapist at the Herd when he opened at 600' with pancake mix, plastic Knifes forks, spoons, pancakes(that pissed him off because there was butter on it) which was packed blind folded by a sportman. He the landed down wind over the waffos. The SNTA pulled his res. and reported him to the USPA.

Track high, Pull LOW!!!