sweetmoose 0 #1 November 27, 2006 I'm just curious about a little somthing. When I went on my second Tandem jump I had talked to the instructor about what you have to do to become an instructor. One of the things he told me is you have to do a cutaway and when you do that you wear a third chute on the front for safety. I'm just wondering why people don't wear three chutes all the time. It seems to me that triple redundancy is a lot better than double redundancy when you are playing with your life. I hope it's not a style thing. If it's an ariel manuverability I kinda understand, but still, if I decide to get seriously into the sport, which I want to, I would rather be as safe as I can. Thanks in advance for any input people have.We die only once, but for such a very long time. I'll believe in ghosts when I catch one in my teeth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zeppo 0 #2 November 27, 2006 Not that I speak from alot of experience, (and I've never had a cutaway) but my thoughts is that double redundancy is plenty in any given circumstance. Too much stuff just means there more shit that can go wrong. I've heard about those cases where a person wears a third parachute, because they know they're getting rid of one of them. With this intentional cutaway, is it much safer to have a backup, instead of getting rid of a perfectly good canopy, and only having one left. Maybe someone with a bit more experience can add more to my thoughts.What goes up, must come DOWN!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #3 November 27, 2006 The chances are that with good packing and good body position.. that a cutaway is a very rare occurance and having a backup is an acceptable level of redundancy for most people. I have had 8 cutaways over the years.. the first 5 were...... #1.. Packing excellence of a round called a Papillion that was in 1974 #2 Packing excellence again on the Papillion 1975 #3 Packing excellence of a military rigger on my C-9 1975 #4 Equipment.. the bag-sleeve on my Parafoil 1800 ft of snivel was more than enough for me 1976 #5 Pilot chute in tow... container lock...fired reserve...without a cutaway on the capewells.. two out.. tangled.. bad juju 1978 #6 Blown lines and cell due to opening at too fast a speed..2004 #7 Tension knots... spinner on eliptical...proable packing issue..2004 #8 Line twists spinner on eliptical....no freakin idea.. probably some packing thing. it even felt strange going off my back....2005 Cutaways happen...3 canopys could save a few people but..... over all Most of us have lived with just 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sweetmoose 0 #4 November 27, 2006 Wow, do most people have that many cutaways? I guess it's kinda a small number for the amount of total jumps, but still, if 3 canopys could save a few people, isn't it kind of worth it. I know if it saved me it would be worth it. Especially if it isn't going to mess up your ability in the air much.We die only once, but for such a very long time. I'll believe in ghosts when I catch one in my teeth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
howardwhite 6 #5 November 27, 2006 Already extensively flained around here a few month ago. Search for a thread whose subject is: "anyone tried invent 3 canopies in a rig?" Dunno how to make it clicky. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wrespess 0 #6 November 27, 2006 If you want to wear three, i recommend you have three. For me, 2 is enough. The odds are about 300 to 1 that you will have a main malfunction. I don't know the odds on a reserve malfunction, but they should be lower because of the care involved in packing them. For argument sake, well say its 300 to 1 too. 300 x 300 = 90000. If i can't deal with these odds, i would have never jumped to begin with... or gotten a motorcycle for that matter. This may be a good article to consider as well. http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/26/cover.story.tm/index.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
narcimund 0 #7 November 27, 2006 Great idea, but why not 4? Or 5? First Class Citizen Twice Over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #8 November 27, 2006 Quote Wow, do most people have that many cutaways? I guess it's kinda a small number for the amount of total jumps No, its actually quite high for under 1000 jumps. Part of that is the shit gear she was jumping back in the day before she took a break from the sport, as I understand it. I have 2100 jumps and 4 cutaways, which is still a bit high, but that's how things have happened. Quotebut still, if 3 canopys could save a few people, isn't it kind of worth it. How about 4 canopies? 5? 8? 10? Think about the children! Having some sort of ethics in instruction and being stern as a DZ about stupid downsizing would save more people then a 3rd canopy. It wouldn't save everyone, but it could help.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #9 November 27, 2006 QuoteNo, its actually quite high for under 1000 jumps. Part of that is the shit gear she was jumping back in the day before she took a break from the sport, as I understand it. Pssst... those are only the loggeg\d jumps Dave... there might be a "few" more.... oh and during that break you can add a few hours... under Paragliders... that I never had to toss out my little reserve.... ... But yeah.. the old Military surplus stuff.. with that Papillion and then the Parafoil... that was too much canopy in too small a bag and container.. that was pretty dumb in retrospect... BUT.. that being said.. I still have OEM Landing gear... with no aftermaret titanium parts in there These days itas not the cutaways and then a failure of a reserve.... that is EXCEEDINGLY rare.... its the STUDS that think they are hot shit with too small canopies coming at the ground at 70 MPH in a dive when they do not have the experience under that canopy to do it...and do it and survive into old age. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #10 November 27, 2006 QuoteBUT.. that being said.. I still have OEM Landing gear... with no aftermaret titanium parts in there Yeah, that's something special now days. Same for me, though. Side note, I have a friend that has metal parts in his ankle from a hook turn that broke it. That was under a PC over 30 years ago while trying to shoot downwind accuracy for a hit and chug.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #11 November 27, 2006 QuotePart of that is the shit gear she was jumping back in the day before she took a break from the sport, as I understand it. I have 2100 jumps and 4 cutaways, which is still a bit high, but that's how things have happened. I made it to 2100 jumps with just one cutaway. And I never chopped a round. Then I started doing a lot of tandems and jumping zp nine cell ellipticals. Now I have about 9 cutaways in the last 2600 jumps. Those old 7 cell F-111 canopies were cut and built very much like the base canopies today. If everyone still jumped them, our malfunction rate and fatality rate would go way down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #12 November 27, 2006 Hey I haave done some of those downwinders shooting accuracy under my Papillion.. Course I was in a little better shape in my 20's than I am nowadays.... I DO have a Papillion and aParacommander if you want to try jumping them... Hell I even packed them and jumped em at Lost Prairie... no malfunctions... Course I did take about 1.5 hours to pack each one I SOOOO do not want to ride the 24 ft flat circular.. or the 26' Lopo belly wart reserves I have for those rigs Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #13 November 27, 2006 QuoteThose old 7 cell F-111 canopies were cut and built very much like the base canopies today. If everyone still jumped them, our malfunction rate and fatality rate would go way down. Mal rate and fatality rate would most likely go down. Skydivers would find another way to kill themselves at the same rate, though. We as a sport need to figure out how to fix the problem so that someone can invent the new discipline that's "cool" so we can start all over again.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #14 November 27, 2006 QuoteI DO have a Papillion and aParacommander if you want to try jumping them... Hell I even packed them and jumped em at Lost Prairie... no malfunctions.. I have a friend in TX with some good quality "vintage" gear that I could jump. He even has a short line that was shortened 24" for a US team member back in the day. Even his "stock" PCs I can't jump, no matter how much I want to. I'm just too fat.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #15 November 27, 2006 PSSST can you say WATER JUMPS Come to LP.. I will let you jump one in the lake In case you hadnt heard... I aint exactly a skinny little thing Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites FFlyer 0 #16 November 27, 2006 QuoteWow, do most people have that many cutaways? I think the number of cutaways people are having in general has been getting less over the years due to improvements in the equipment. Now its generally a case of bad packing and/or bad body position on opening that causes malfunction. I have just over 650 jumps and 0 cutaways. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dragon2 2 #17 November 27, 2006 Because people have died jumping more than 2 canopies and screwing up. Your main: can be cut away. your reserve: can not be cutaway (duh). Third canopy: if you can cut it away you may do so unintentionally. If you cannot cut it away, you may end up with 2 canopies that are attached to you which is very dangerous. Jumping with 3 canopies is considered dangerous, so not everyone can do the intentional cutaway thing (not beginners anyway). Even the extra small round that some of the Canopy Formation jumpers wear has caused some accidents as well as saved some people. More stuff = more change of messing something up. If it can be messed up, be sure that it will! ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BMFin 0 #18 November 27, 2006 Quote The odds are about 300 to 1 that you will have a main malfunction. Where did you get this number from ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sweetmoose 0 #19 November 27, 2006 Thanks for all the input everyone, you skydivers rock. Everyone responded so quickly. Well, when I get done here overseas I'm gonna start my skydiving training to get certified and what not. Unfortunately that wont be for like another 7 months. Wish me luck!We die only once, but for such a very long time. I'll believe in ghosts when I catch one in my teeth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Chris-Ottawa 0 #20 November 27, 2006 Hello, I think everyone in this sport is absolutely right, 3 is too much, 2 is enough. Adding a third can only create problems. I think the sport has advances far enough that the deaths in the sport are caused by 2 things: 1) Stupidity/Human Error 2) Freak accidents Everyday life contains risk, yes skydiving is risky, but we all know our gear works and we trust our gear. This is where the touchy word of "safe" comes into skydiving. Skydiving is high risk, but the gear, the people, are safe. The sport is also a safe sport, but one mistake and that's the end. I suggest taking a look at the Fatality databas on this site. Read through all the malfunctions and see how many were due to gear. You'll be quite surprised I think. I've only ever heard of 2 double malfunctions, but I include those in "freak accidents". Now, if we were losing 2-300 people in a year, then there is a problem, but on average, 50-70 per year is pretty low considering what we're doing. If all we did was exit the plane, solo freefall, and deploy around 4k with lots of comfort room, never do Crew and never swoop, there would probably be very few fatalities. When things like swooping, CREW, freefly, and RW get added, it increases the risk and the chance of injury. Ask yourself this: Would you jump if there was no risk at all? I would imagine you would say yes. Now would you enjoy it if there was no risk? I would imagine you would say no to this eventually. Humans get thrill from doing risky things, it's as simple as that. If you are severely worried about your second chute failing, you have a few options. -Don't jump -Jump with a third chute (but what if that one fails too?) It all comes down to a personal choice, if you want to jump with 3 chutes, I'm sure sure that no one would stop you unless it comes down to "their" safety. Honestly, you'll learn more as you get more jumps and hang around the DZ more and more. Your question will be answered in time and I would just let things play out! Have fun jumping! Chris"When once you have tasted flight..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sweetmoose 0 #21 November 27, 2006 Thanks for the advics, I would probably still want to skydive even if there was more risk. I wasn't really so worried about the main canopy failing, cutting away and then the reserve malfunctioning too. I was more worried about both canopys deploying at the same time and getting tangled, and then where does that leave you. I figured with the third chute, you could maybe use a knife to cut off the other two since the reserve doesn't have a cutaway, and then you could use the third. Of course that would only really work if you had enough room to do all that I suppose. Maybe I'm just a dreamer, lol. Also, I did look at the fatalaties area and a lot of them are due to risky stuff when getting close to the ground like turning too low or flying into a truck, I just like to cover as many bases as possible. Thanks for the advice!!We die only once, but for such a very long time. I'll believe in ghosts when I catch one in my teeth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Reginald 0 #22 November 27, 2006 QuoteI'm just wondering why people don't wear three chutes all the time. It seems to me that triple redundancy is a lot better than double redundancy when you are playing with your life. Plenty of good answers already but the simplest is that one typically runs out of time before they run out of options."We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #23 November 27, 2006 Quote...Having some sort of ethics in instruction and being stern as a DZ about stupid downsizing would save more people then a 3rd canopy. It wouldn't save everyone, but it could help. I was reading the thread from the top down and got to this and just had to stop and say: Damn, Dave! Good stuff and AMEN, brutha'!My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 2 #24 November 27, 2006 I hope what you've read in these excellent replies teaches you this: despite what most non-skydivers (wrongly) presume, despite what is so often wrongly reported by non-skydiver newpaper reporters whenever there's an accident – and what is (understandably) implied in your original question, most skydiving accidents are NOT caused by "both parachutes failing to open", but by other factors, usually involving some degree of jumper/pilot error, such as pilot error while landing a perfectly good parachute, a collision between jumpers in freefall or under canopy, or the jumper's failure to properly execute emergency procedures in the event of a malfunctioned main parachute. (In the days before audible altimeters and AADs, there were a lot more fatalities and "near-misses" due to loss of altitude awareness. Third parachutes usually don't help in those situations.) Fatalities caused by nothing more than double malfunctions (i.e., where both the main and reserve parachutes catastrophically malfunction), while not unheard of, are extremely rare. That's the simple answer to why we don't wear a third parachute: because 99% of the time, a third parachute wouldn't make a beneficial difference. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sweetmoose 0 #25 November 27, 2006 Thanks again, I do feel a lot better skydiving. I've only done two tandem jumps, but I can't wait to start training and jumping on my own.We die only once, but for such a very long time. I'll believe in ghosts when I catch one in my teeth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. 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Amazon 7 #12 November 27, 2006 Hey I haave done some of those downwinders shooting accuracy under my Papillion.. Course I was in a little better shape in my 20's than I am nowadays.... I DO have a Papillion and aParacommander if you want to try jumping them... Hell I even packed them and jumped em at Lost Prairie... no malfunctions... Course I did take about 1.5 hours to pack each one I SOOOO do not want to ride the 24 ft flat circular.. or the 26' Lopo belly wart reserves I have for those rigs Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #13 November 27, 2006 QuoteThose old 7 cell F-111 canopies were cut and built very much like the base canopies today. If everyone still jumped them, our malfunction rate and fatality rate would go way down. Mal rate and fatality rate would most likely go down. Skydivers would find another way to kill themselves at the same rate, though. We as a sport need to figure out how to fix the problem so that someone can invent the new discipline that's "cool" so we can start all over again.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #14 November 27, 2006 QuoteI DO have a Papillion and aParacommander if you want to try jumping them... Hell I even packed them and jumped em at Lost Prairie... no malfunctions.. I have a friend in TX with some good quality "vintage" gear that I could jump. He even has a short line that was shortened 24" for a US team member back in the day. Even his "stock" PCs I can't jump, no matter how much I want to. I'm just too fat.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #15 November 27, 2006 PSSST can you say WATER JUMPS Come to LP.. I will let you jump one in the lake In case you hadnt heard... I aint exactly a skinny little thing Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FFlyer 0 #16 November 27, 2006 QuoteWow, do most people have that many cutaways? I think the number of cutaways people are having in general has been getting less over the years due to improvements in the equipment. Now its generally a case of bad packing and/or bad body position on opening that causes malfunction. I have just over 650 jumps and 0 cutaways. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 2 #17 November 27, 2006 Because people have died jumping more than 2 canopies and screwing up. Your main: can be cut away. your reserve: can not be cutaway (duh). Third canopy: if you can cut it away you may do so unintentionally. If you cannot cut it away, you may end up with 2 canopies that are attached to you which is very dangerous. Jumping with 3 canopies is considered dangerous, so not everyone can do the intentional cutaway thing (not beginners anyway). Even the extra small round that some of the Canopy Formation jumpers wear has caused some accidents as well as saved some people. More stuff = more change of messing something up. If it can be messed up, be sure that it will! ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BMFin 0 #18 November 27, 2006 Quote The odds are about 300 to 1 that you will have a main malfunction. Where did you get this number from ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sweetmoose 0 #19 November 27, 2006 Thanks for all the input everyone, you skydivers rock. Everyone responded so quickly. Well, when I get done here overseas I'm gonna start my skydiving training to get certified and what not. Unfortunately that wont be for like another 7 months. Wish me luck!We die only once, but for such a very long time. I'll believe in ghosts when I catch one in my teeth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chris-Ottawa 0 #20 November 27, 2006 Hello, I think everyone in this sport is absolutely right, 3 is too much, 2 is enough. Adding a third can only create problems. I think the sport has advances far enough that the deaths in the sport are caused by 2 things: 1) Stupidity/Human Error 2) Freak accidents Everyday life contains risk, yes skydiving is risky, but we all know our gear works and we trust our gear. This is where the touchy word of "safe" comes into skydiving. Skydiving is high risk, but the gear, the people, are safe. The sport is also a safe sport, but one mistake and that's the end. I suggest taking a look at the Fatality databas on this site. Read through all the malfunctions and see how many were due to gear. You'll be quite surprised I think. I've only ever heard of 2 double malfunctions, but I include those in "freak accidents". Now, if we were losing 2-300 people in a year, then there is a problem, but on average, 50-70 per year is pretty low considering what we're doing. If all we did was exit the plane, solo freefall, and deploy around 4k with lots of comfort room, never do Crew and never swoop, there would probably be very few fatalities. When things like swooping, CREW, freefly, and RW get added, it increases the risk and the chance of injury. Ask yourself this: Would you jump if there was no risk at all? I would imagine you would say yes. Now would you enjoy it if there was no risk? I would imagine you would say no to this eventually. Humans get thrill from doing risky things, it's as simple as that. If you are severely worried about your second chute failing, you have a few options. -Don't jump -Jump with a third chute (but what if that one fails too?) It all comes down to a personal choice, if you want to jump with 3 chutes, I'm sure sure that no one would stop you unless it comes down to "their" safety. Honestly, you'll learn more as you get more jumps and hang around the DZ more and more. Your question will be answered in time and I would just let things play out! Have fun jumping! Chris"When once you have tasted flight..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sweetmoose 0 #21 November 27, 2006 Thanks for the advics, I would probably still want to skydive even if there was more risk. I wasn't really so worried about the main canopy failing, cutting away and then the reserve malfunctioning too. I was more worried about both canopys deploying at the same time and getting tangled, and then where does that leave you. I figured with the third chute, you could maybe use a knife to cut off the other two since the reserve doesn't have a cutaway, and then you could use the third. Of course that would only really work if you had enough room to do all that I suppose. Maybe I'm just a dreamer, lol. Also, I did look at the fatalaties area and a lot of them are due to risky stuff when getting close to the ground like turning too low or flying into a truck, I just like to cover as many bases as possible. Thanks for the advice!!We die only once, but for such a very long time. I'll believe in ghosts when I catch one in my teeth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reginald 0 #22 November 27, 2006 QuoteI'm just wondering why people don't wear three chutes all the time. It seems to me that triple redundancy is a lot better than double redundancy when you are playing with your life. Plenty of good answers already but the simplest is that one typically runs out of time before they run out of options."We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #23 November 27, 2006 Quote...Having some sort of ethics in instruction and being stern as a DZ about stupid downsizing would save more people then a 3rd canopy. It wouldn't save everyone, but it could help. I was reading the thread from the top down and got to this and just had to stop and say: Damn, Dave! Good stuff and AMEN, brutha'!My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #24 November 27, 2006 I hope what you've read in these excellent replies teaches you this: despite what most non-skydivers (wrongly) presume, despite what is so often wrongly reported by non-skydiver newpaper reporters whenever there's an accident – and what is (understandably) implied in your original question, most skydiving accidents are NOT caused by "both parachutes failing to open", but by other factors, usually involving some degree of jumper/pilot error, such as pilot error while landing a perfectly good parachute, a collision between jumpers in freefall or under canopy, or the jumper's failure to properly execute emergency procedures in the event of a malfunctioned main parachute. (In the days before audible altimeters and AADs, there were a lot more fatalities and "near-misses" due to loss of altitude awareness. Third parachutes usually don't help in those situations.) Fatalities caused by nothing more than double malfunctions (i.e., where both the main and reserve parachutes catastrophically malfunction), while not unheard of, are extremely rare. That's the simple answer to why we don't wear a third parachute: because 99% of the time, a third parachute wouldn't make a beneficial difference. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sweetmoose 0 #25 November 27, 2006 Thanks again, I do feel a lot better skydiving. I've only done two tandem jumps, but I can't wait to start training and jumping on my own.We die only once, but for such a very long time. I'll believe in ghosts when I catch one in my teeth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites