Debunking the "Skydiving is less dangerous than driving" myth

[nerd137 0]

I guess I don't follow how whuffo perception of skydiving as a dangerous activity relates to my post...but that's okay.

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[nerd137 0]

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Interesting perspective.

But my first reaction is that I'm 28 and been skydiving for 2 years. I've not yet personally known anyone who died skydiving, but I have personally known 3 people who died driving. I guess that's why most people will take a statistical approach to defining activities as "dangerous"; individual experiences will vary.

Well, Nerd, your exposure to skydiving is 1/14th of your exposure to driving.

I've been around 61 years and have known 3 driving fatalities. I've been skydiving 10 years and have known 9 skydiving fatalities. So I guess my experience mirrors Roger's.

Actually, I'm really curious...what point did you think I was trying to make?

[kallend 2,026]

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Interesting perspective.

But my first reaction is that I'm 28 and been skydiving for 2 years. I've not yet personally known anyone who died skydiving, but I have personally known 3 people who died driving. I guess that's why most people will take a statistical approach to defining activities as "dangerous"; individual experiences will vary.

Well, Nerd, your exposure to skydiving is 1/14th of your exposure to driving.

I've been around 61 years and have known 3 driving fatalities. I've been skydiving 10 years and have known 9 skydiving fatalities. So I guess my experience mirrors Roger's.

Actually, I'm really curious...what point did you think I was trying to make?

You were making a point? I thought you were giving personal anecdote contrary to Roger's. I thought I'd add some additional data.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[nerd137 0]

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You were making a point?

Cute.

[JohnMitchell 16]

How about this? Of all the dead skydivers I know, all of them got it skydiving or in plane crashes, none of them in auto accidents, yet they all drove as much as anyone else.

Maybe skydivers are just really, really good drivers?

[Eule 0]

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Somewhere between "on" and "start" on the ignition key, your car has a "lamp test" position where all the little warning lights come on. This tells you if the "brake" warning light is burned out. After you start the engine, if the brake warning light is on or comes on, there's something wrong with your brakes.

The "brake warning" lamp is activated by either the ABS computer throwing a code, or a float switch in the fluid res. on the master cylinder.

There are two cars in my driveway right now that have neither ABS computers nor float switches on the reservoir, yet they still have brake warning lamps. One of them has a switch on the master cylinder that closes when the piston is too far off-center (in other words, one of the hydraulic circuits has failed) and the other one has a switch on the proportioning valve that does the same thing.

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It doesn't tell you that your brakes are working, or if you brake line is about to blow a hole.

It does tell you that your brakes have not failed in one somewhat common way. In other words, the warning light being off is necessary but not sufficient to know that your brakes are working. I agree that it doesn't tell you that something is _going_ to fail - that's hard to do.

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Unless you crawl under the car each day you don't give 1/10 of the inspection you give to your personal rig.

Agreed. My point was that cars are not totally devoid of safety checks, but I didn't want to say that the checks that do happen are as thorough as checking out a rig.

Eule

PLF does not stand for Please Land on Face.

[RogerRamjet 0]

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Interesting perspective.

But my first reaction is that I'm 28 and been skydiving for 2 years. I've not yet personally known anyone who died skydiving, but I have personally known 3 people who died driving. I guess that's why most people will take a statistical approach to defining activities as "dangerous"; individual experiences will vary.

Well, I agree to some extent. You might notice I said "Most" in my post. Also, at two years in, I think you're pretty normal to have not known anyone who went in yet. The first I knew happened to be the first year I jumped. The next two were 40 minutes apart two years later. If you think about it, pretty much everyone you have ever or will ever meet drives and hardly any in comparison jump. If you keep at it, the sad reality is that you will probably know jumpers who die. And.. the percentage of jumpers you know vs. those who died will be far greater than the same stat for drivers you know (even though you already have 3 [sorry for that]).

If you hang around for a really long time, it just gets worse. I just exchanged emails with Jim Hooper who used to own the Z-Hills center. He started well before me and is still active on and off. He has not known any drivers to die and is in to triple digits for jumpers he has known.

To compare other experiences from my life, I rode performance sport bikes for 13 years, fell off twice but never knew anyone who died riding though I hung with a pretty aggresive group. I have now been a competitive water-skier since 1989 at one of the largest facilities in the world and still have all my friends from when I started.

Bottom line for me is that in my opinion, the drive to the dropzone is far safer than the jump.

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Roger "Ramjet" Clark
FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

[nerd137 0]

Good grief. Clearly, I need to add emphasis to the key portions of my post:

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Interesting perspective.

But my first reaction is that I'm 28 and been skydiving for 2 years. I've not yet personally known anyone who died skydiving, but I have personally known 3 people who died driving. I guess that's why most people will take a statistical approach to defining activities as "dangerous"; individual experiences will vary.

For the record, I do NOT think that skydiving is safer than driving. The point I was trying (apparently poorly) to make is that just because someone (e.g. ME) has known more people to die driving than skydiving, that experience, in itself, does not mean skydiving is safe. On the other hand, just because a person has had the opposite experience, that, in itself, does not make skydiving dangerous. In other words, individual experiences will vary which is why a broad statistical analysis is a more accurate way to assess danger than by relying anecdotal evidence.

Perhaps my statement "interesting perspective" gave off an adversarial vibe. If so, that was unintentional. All I meant, literally, was that your post was, well, interesting. Regardless, I'm totally at a loss as to how the hell my original post was interpreted to mean skydiving is safer than driving. Perhaps someone could explain to me...

[RogerRamjet 0]

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Good grief. Clearly, I need to add emphasis to the key portions of my post:

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Interesting perspective.

But my first reaction is that I'm 28 and been skydiving for 2 years. I've not yet personally known anyone who died skydiving, but I have personally known 3 people who died driving. I guess that's why most people will take a statistical approach to defining activities as "dangerous"; individual experiences will vary.

For the record, I do NOT think that skydiving is safer than driving. The point I was trying (apparently poorly) to make is that just because someone (e.g. ME) has known more people to die driving than skydiving, that experience, in itself, does not mean skydiving is safe. On the other hand, just because a person has had the opposite experience, that, in itself, does not make skydiving dangerous. In other words, individual experiences will vary which is why a broad statistical analysis is a more accurate way to assess danger than by relying anecdotal evidence.

Perhaps my statement "interesting perspective" gave off an adversarial vibe. If so, that was unintentional. All I meant, literally, was that your post was, well, interesting. Regardless, I'm totally at a loss as to how the hell my original post was interpreted to mean skydiving is safer than driving. Perhaps someone could explain to me...

Relax, I didn't take it as adversarial at all. I think there will be a number of perspectives on this subject depending on each individual's own experience in the sport. I was just adding my own observations to the mix and my own "opinion" of how it all looks to me.

If it helps to know a little more of my observations, I knew a few jumpers that I "knew" would go in eventually. They were the real risk takers from my perspective, low pullers, drugs, whatever; I just knew they were more likely than others to come to a premature end. Unfortunately, I have also known very good, very safe (IMO) jumpers who went in anyway and that just has to skew anyone's perspective a bit.

I do think the individual can mitigate the risks to an acceptable level (not eliminate mind you).

1) Know your gear and how it works. It amazes me these days to see how many jumpers have no clue how their system works other than pull this handle for this and that handle for that.

2) Know (and practice) your EP's for each foreseeable circumstance. Making up your reaction to a particular scenario during the event is a sure way to have big problems.

3) Execute what must be done in a timely fashion. This applies to everything from the throw to when to begin EP's if needed.

4) Be as aware as possible of what is going on around you until you're off the landing area. That is when the jump has concluded, not before.

There is a ton of other stuff too, but those are "my" basics for survival.

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Roger "Ramjet" Clark
FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

[nerd137 0]

Sorry...I just get frustrated when disagreement develops over an issue where no one is actually disagreeing. (My last post wasn't directed solely at you, btw.)

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

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Well, over the next 7 years, I knew 5 people who went in and in the remaining time until now, the number is in the 60s or 70s (I don't really want to know).

In all that time, I have always known at least as many drivers as skydivers (actually a ton more).

To this day (I am now 53), I have never known anyone killed in an auto accident.

This is an incredibly true argument, and I have thought of this myself, though I've never expressed it to anyone or until now heard anyone use it. I chose not to use this simply becuase as he said, it's not very statistical.

I've been around skydiving literally since I was in diapers. I'm only 25 and I've already lost count of how many people I've known who have gone in, but I would estimate around 15. My father has been jumping since 1974, and of course his list is much longer. As for auto accidents, I've known a few people who were killed in them, but the number can be counted on one hand.

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[happythoughts 0]

I'm glad this "skydiving is safer..." thread has stayed going so long. If it keeps going, I won't have to repeat all this in two weeks.

Now, on to other topics. Whose girlfriend/parents are we going to convince that skydiving is safe ? It is Tuesday already.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Maybe skydivers are just really, really good drivers?

I imagine they're better than the norm at handling lousy situations (not panicking, processing the visual quickly), but worse than average at putting themselves in a more vunerable situation to need that superior ability.

Sadly, I've found cancer is beating out both driving and skydiving for people I know well enough to call friends.

[JohnMitchell 16]

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I imagine they're better than the norm at handling lousy situations (not panicking, processing the visual quickly), but worse than average at putting themselves in a more vunerable situation to need that superior ability.

Proving my point perfectly, skydiving is more dangerous than driving.

[RogerRamjet 0]

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Well, over the next 7 years, I knew 5 people who went in and in the remaining time until now, the number is in the 60s or 70s (I don't really want to know).

In all that time, I have always known at least as many drivers as skydivers (actually a ton more).

To this day (I am now 53), I have never known anyone killed in an auto accident.

This is an incredibly true argument, and I have thought of this myself, though I've never expressed it to anyone or until now heard anyone use it. I chose not to use this simply becuase as he said, it's not very statistical.

I've been around skydiving literally since I was in diapers. I'm only 25 and I've already lost count of how many people I've known who have gone in, but I would estimate around 15. My father has been jumping since 1974, and of course his list is much longer. As for auto accidents, I've known a few people who were killed in them, but the number can be counted on one hand.

Who is your father, maybe I know him?

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Roger "Ramjet" Clark
FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

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Who is your father, maybe I know him?

I don't recognize your name, but I wouldn't be surprised either. His name is Mike Ashley, and he does have a username on DZ.com, Skydance, I think.

He started jumping in Ontario, mostly at Arthur, which has been shut down for several years now. But you could have run into him at Z-hills in the 70's, Alberta or Lost Prairie in the 80's, or Skydive Greene County from '93 on. Plus several nationals since he's a camera guy.

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[DustyP 0]

i was told skydiving was safer than the car ride to the DZ..........yeah, this trcuk, with the 4ways on and on the side of the road turned right in front of me. i was passing in the left lane. i dont know how we diddent hit or how nobody was hurt. i told the lady that told me that skydiving was safer, that she was prolly right!

being that im new in the sport. i dont think about the risks after the first jump of the day. after i get that first one in.....it dosent even cross my mind!
but
the first one always gets me!
i love this sport! and if this is how im gonna go, then so be it!
i think when it your time to go, it dosent matter if your sleeping or skydiving!
be safe everyone...............

.

[quack 0]

[JohnMitchell 16]

Wow, not sure what all that means, but I have been jumping long enough to have seen a big cross section of the sport, in other words, not "one number" but a fairly large sample.

[quack 0]

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Wow, not sure what all that means, but I have been jumping long enough to have seen a big cross section of the sport, in other words, not "one number" but a fairly large sample.

Sample size doesn't really mean anything with the point I'm making. The 'one number' I'm referring to is the numerical ranking of one risky activity over another. Comparisons are made between risks all the time, especially in the media.

None of these comparisons do justice to the thing at hand, because as soon as one starts to compare an apple to an orange, or an apple to a different kind of apple, it loses meaning.

Risks, such as skydiving, are inherently complex. Trying to say skydiving as an acitivity is safer or less safe than another activity is futile. A person can use statistics to back up their point, but as soon as the 'other' activity is stated, the listener will form their own opinion, based on their own knowledge and experience. Many of the posts in this thread have indicated that.

No risks are the same to any two persons.

But you have to understand, mental illness is like cholesterol. There is the good kind and the bad. Without the good kind- less flavor to life. - Serge A. Storms

[kelpdiver 2]

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None of these comparisons do justice to the thing at hand, because as soon as one starts to compare an apple to an orange, or an apple to a different kind of apple, it loses meaning.

a dodge worthy of Speakers Corner.

Come on.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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i was told skydiving was safer than the car ride to the DZ

1) Skydiving is not safe.

2) Stay in this sport long enough, and soon you will know someone who's died doing it.

3) Of all the people I've met in my 43 years of life and the great people I have met skydiving in my 4 1/2 years in the sport. I can't think of a single person I know who has died in an automobile accident (I know I'm lucky), but I'm already starting my second hand for the number of dead friends due to some form of jumping.

4) My closet brush with death occured as a passenger in a high speed car accident years ago. So I don't want to be too much of a hypocrite with this post.

Anyway I'm not in conflict with all the things you've said. I just wanted to point out the dead friends thing. Who's next? You? Me? Are the rewards worth the risks? Often ... but not always.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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I imagine they're better than the norm at handling lousy situations (not panicking, processing the visual quickly), but worse than average at putting themselves in a more vunerable situation to need that superior ability.

I was kind of hoping it would be the other way around. The skydiver would have developed good judgement through jumping of knowing when to take the risks and when not to and to rely on one's reflexes as a secordary thing. That's a sign that the jumper is trying to stay ahead of the 8-ball and not getting caught behind it.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[quack 0]

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None of these comparisons do justice to the thing at hand, because as soon as one starts to compare an apple to an orange, or an apple to a different kind of apple, it loses meaning.

a dodge worthy of Speakers Corner.

Come on.

dodge?? I'm not following you.

I'm giving my opinion on the topic.

But you have to understand, mental illness is like cholesterol. There is the good kind and the bad. Without the good kind- less flavor to life. - Serge A. Storms

[fastphil 0]

Now that we are seeing cell phone use while in freefall I expect to see statistics change.

I can remember times when the real risk taking at the DZ started after the last load of the day (like riding the rotating beacon 150 ft AGL, doing motorcyles 130 MPH on the runway, etc.)...